“(Asked about his stance on pornography, in response to perceived endorsement of Hustler, who had tricked Chomsky into giving an interview for the magazine.)
Pornography is humiliation and degradation of women. It’s a disgraceful activity. I don’t want to be associated with it. Just take a look at the pictures. I mean, women are degraded as vulgar sex objects. That’s not what human beings are. I don’t even see anything to discuss.
(Interviewer: But didn’t performers choose to do the job and get paid?)
The fact that people agree to it and are paid, is about as convincing as the fact that we should be in favour of sweatshops in China, where women are locked into a factory and work fifteen hours a day, and then the factory burns down and they all die. Yeah, they were paid and they consented, but it doesn’t make me in favour of it, so that argument we can’t even talk about.
As for the fact that it’s some people’s erotica, well you know that’s their problem, doesn’t mean I have to contribute to it. If they get enjoyment out of humiliation of women, they have a problem, but it’s nothing I want to contribute to.
(Interviewer: How should we improve the production conditions of pornography?)
By eliminating degradation of women, that would improve it. Just like child abuse, you don’t want to make it better child abuse, you want to stop child abuse.
Suppose there’s a starving child in the slums, and you say “well, I’ll give you food if you’ll let me abuse you.” Suppose—well, there happen to be laws against child abuse, fortunately—but suppose someone were to give you an argument. Well, you know, after all a child’s starving otherwise, so you’re taking away their chance to get some food if you ban abuse. I mean, is that an argument?
The answer to that is stop the conditions in which the child is starving, and the same is true here. Eliminate the conditions in which women can’t get decent jobs, not permit abusive and destructive behaviour.”
—–
Amnesty International should look into that whole eliminating the conditions in which women can’t get decent jobs, not permitting abusing and destructive behaviour idea.
18 comments
August 25, 2015 at 6:13 am
roughseasinthemed
Ah. Pornography. Consenting women. Getting paid, just like sex work/prostitution. They all choose to do it, so it’s ok. And it doesn’t impact on society’s view of women at all? No. Of course not.
Sex objects? Don’t be silly. These women have equal rights and economic power.
Yeah. Where have we heard that before and how many times?
To drop the sarcasm, it’s very difficult to draw the line between pornography as degradation of the subject, whether women, children or men, and pornography as enjoyable, graphic, allegedly consensual sex.
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August 25, 2015 at 7:30 am
Stew
It is a difficult subject to discuss or comprehend, simply, because pornography is a product for the mind, and shares the very same space, there, with other more elevated thoughts and thinking; especially among men. It is no wonder, then, that the attitude and intentions of the creative mind, among both men and women, in the arts, philosophy and politics, has always been held suspect.
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August 25, 2015 at 8:30 am
Ron Waller
Chomsky really went off the deep end on this one. Thought he was a social libertarian, not a social conservative.
To say pornography is degrading to women is to really say that sex is degrading to women. If people like Chomsky were to get power, and make a million things illegal to create the perfect nanny state, I guess that would include outlawing any sex position outside of missionary — and only for the purpose of procreation, because it’s so “degrading.” That means no gay sex, because it’s all degrading to homosexuals. (Oh my! Just look at what those gay men do to one another! It’s humiliating!)
One could argue that some women are forced into prostitution because of the terrible economic conditions created by fascist right-wing economics over the past 35 years. But pornography?
Smartest approach on social issues is harm reduction. Waging war on drugs or a war on sex makes matters worse. Solves nothing. Women are not weak-minded, fragile little creatures who need patriarchs like Chomsky to protect them from themselves. They are no less capable than men in making decisions on how to live their lives.
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August 25, 2015 at 8:48 am
Robert
Media criticism is humiliation and degradation of professors. It’s a disgraceful activity. I don’t want to be associated with it. Just take a look at the articles. I mean, professors are degraded as vulgar social commentary objects. That’s not what human beings are. Professors think about sex, too.
(I apologies for making you think about Norm Chomsky having sex.)
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August 25, 2015 at 10:11 am
The Intransigent One
On the one hand, I do actually believe that in a patriarchy-free world, there would be nothing degrading about consenting adults being paid to have sex – even rough and/or kinky sex – on camera, and other adults paying to watch. It wouldn’t be much different than buying a video about gourmet cooking, WWE, or show-jumping.
BUT
And this is a huge BUT
This is not a patriarchy-free world. The idea that sex is degrading to women, is not something invented by feminists. Last I checked, pornographers were proudly advertising that their videos depicted acts degrading (or even harmful) to the women involved (common words: violated, destroyed, whore, slut, hole, just brainstorming the top few here), because porn consumers seem to see it as a selling feature. In fact, the degree of degrading language and activity – and outright harm – against women in porn, has increased over the years, because it seems to be selling higher than anything else.
Or maybe I’ve missed something because porn is really all about egalitarianism and mutual pleasure, and conducted with the utmost safety protocols and worker protection in place?
Fuck off assholes. Women in porn are often being exploited, put at risks that would be unacceptable in any other line of work, or even outright harmed for your entertainment. I’m sorry if that idea interferes with your pleasure while you wank.
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August 25, 2015 at 10:12 am
The Arbourist
@RSITM
Is it?
Or does the category distinction between pornography and erotica exist because dudes like access to exploited women?
I’m thinking that an industry that thrives on the exploitation and ruination of women should not be given as much rhetorical leeway as it gets.
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August 25, 2015 at 10:27 am
The Arbourist
@Stew
Dealing with the real-world deleterious effects of pornography isn’t terribly difficult to understand. The porn industry degrades, exploits, and harms women.
This is a new one to me – elevating porn to the status of a philosophy or an ideology.
But let us run with that – National Socialism is a ideology that inhabits this treasured space in the mind, of both men and women. Should we respect the ‘creative zeitgeist’ behind the ideology of national socialism since it shares this ‘sacred space’ in our minds?
I’m thinking no. There are tangible negative consequences for promoting, espousing and practicing National Socialism. People have mounted strong criticism and objections to NS’s ideology and practice in the real world. NS’s status as and ideal has not shielded it from criticism or stopped it from being rightly looked upon as a terrible social/political system.
Relegating National Socialism or Pornography to some sort of platonic state does not make them immune to analysis, criticism, and judgement.
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August 25, 2015 at 11:42 am
The Arbourist
@Ron Waller
Chomsky describes himself as Libertarian Socialist (full length article here):
“Libertarian socialism, then, defends a commitment to both equality and liberty. On
the one hand liberty is meaningless without material equality because compulsion
occurs when people do not freely have access to resources, and on the other hand
to secure material equality without liberty involves compulsion in determining the
terms and conditions of that material equality. Such compulsion involves a form
of inequality or unfreedom. Equality must include equality in decision-making
processes, as part of the realisation of liberty”
I would hazard to comment further because the definition of ‘libertarian’ changes depending on which part of the world one comes from. But the quote and the article do much to clarify Chomsky’s where he is coming from. The thesis of what Chomsky is saying – eliminate the conditions that force women into pornography – does not seem particularly ‘socially conservative’ to me.
*boggle* Err…what? There are a myriad of ways one could show how wrong this statement is. On a the level of dictionary definitions all the way to the social class analysis level with regards to how women are viewed in society and the ways in which they interact.
I can go into detail for whichever case you happen to be arguing, but we can safely say on the base semantic level and class-analysis front, your assumption would be problematic at best.
I suggest you read the article on what Chomsky’s actual positions on the state and power relations in society, because currently you are erecting some embarrassingly large straw-arguments that have no basis in reality.
This is actually the approach that Chomsky adovocates:
Eliminating the material conditions that force women into pornography is the very definition of ‘harm reduction’. Women are almost always on the short end of the stick when it comes to social, economic, and political power – remedying those oppressive conditions would allow them a greater range of choices in society – including not having to choose ones that inherently destructive to them as individuals and as a class.
No, women are the oppressed class in society. It is slightly different story. Women do not need ‘protection’ from any particular patriarch, rather they need emancipation from the structures of society that relegate them to the sex class. Pornography, like prostitution, is one of those structures in society that is inherently toxic and abusive for women individually and as a class.
I’m curious here, are you saying that the experience of women and men in society are the same? Because the first thought I had was this:
“Well why don’t women just choose not to go into pornography and prostitution? They have the choice don’t they?”
These statements are fundamentally tone-deaf with regards to how society is structured. It is based on the flawed assumption that there are no differences in the social, economic, and political ramifications of being male in society versus being female in society. Furthermore, it makes the short sighted and flawed liberal assumption that making choices is somehow equivalent to equality and therefore a just society.
Society proscribes the choices that are available to us as individuals in said society. Given that our society is currently based on patriarchal norms that are fundamentally unequal and oppressive – any range of “choices” available to women (and for that matter, men) will necessarily be unjust.
So no matter how many decisions or choosy-choices are made by the modern empowered liberal woman – said choices do not affect the material and social basis of their oppression, which is systemic, and class based, and also happens to form the bedrock of our society.
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August 25, 2015 at 11:52 am
Ron Waller
So are gay men being exploited in porn as well? How about men who are dominated by women? Or are only women supposed to be treated like children as if they’re not smart enough to think for themselves?
A woman should have the right over her own body. Whether she wants to do porn or prostitute herself is entirely her business. Telling a woman she can’t do these things is no different than telling a woman she can’t have an abortion.
Feminism is about empowering women, not taking away their rights. The only time a person is exploited is when they are not given a choice.
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August 25, 2015 at 12:39 pm
The Arbourist
@Ron Waller
So, now you’ve abandoned the harm reduction idea now? Because it seems like now you’re doubling down on liberal choice fantasy mentioned in the earlier post that choice someone equals justice and equality.
When all your choices are shit there is no justice, and certainly no equality.
I’m not really sure how this applies if we are arguing that raising the material standards of women will allow them to make choices that are not inherently destructive to them as individuals and as a class (see harm reduction argument previously stated).
My my my… I should send this to the Great Feminist Hall of Quotations – “Telling a woman she can’t be a prostitute, or be in pornography is the equivalent of saying that she can’t have an abortion.”
*facepalm forever*
Shall we also boldly defend woman’s rights to be trafficked or enslaved? Nowhere will you find that I am arguing that women should be forbidden to participate in pornography or prostitution. Rightly identifying pornography and prostitution as toxic features of society that are inherently destructive for women is not encroaching on the freedom of anyone.
Whoa there Son! It seems we’re having a semantic problem here; I’ll just say this once, slowly and unambiguously for your elucidation:
Feminism is about liberating women as a class from the oppressive constructs of patriarchal society.
All that empowerment and equality ‘stuff’ comes after we deal with the fundamental problems of patriarchal nature of society, because there can be no empowerment, no equality when two classes of individuals exist in society, the male dominant class and the subordinate female class.
Because choices happen in a vacuum and implicit and explicit societal norms never effect the choices available to us… Class Analysis, Exploitation WTF are they?
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August 25, 2015 at 12:55 pm
The Intransigent One
I haven’t watched or read enough about gay porn to comment. (Nice red herring, by the way)
I don’t see anybody saying women shouldn’t be allowed to do porn if that’s what they want. What I see Chomsky, Arbourist, and myself saying is, you shouldn’t consume porn, and if you do, you should have no illusions about the conditions under which (almost all) porn is made, and if the conditions under which (almost all) porn is made is part of the turn-on for you, then you have some serious issues you need to work on.
When it comes to het porn, the fundamental dynamic for women participants (other than the very biggest stars) is, they’re expendable, the drive is always for more extreme acts, and if one woman won’t do it, there are others who will, and word will get around that she’s “difficult” and she’ll have trouble finding any work.
At first glance, this doesn’t sound any different from any other kind of job where the supply of workers exceeds the demand. Except that there is no other legal job where deliberate exposure of mucous membranes to infectious agents is in the job description.
And are women going into porn making a truly free and informed choice? I would argue most are not. The porn industry makes sure everybody knows about the glamour and riches of the biggest stars, and hypes that big dream, hard. Information about rates of injury and infection, and the relative odds of getting hurt vs making it big, on the other hand, are largely unavailable outside academic publications.
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August 25, 2015 at 1:47 pm
Ron Waller
“So, now you’ve abandoned the harm reduction idea now?”
No, not at all. I believe in very strong big-government regulations over the sex industry (whatever one wants to call it.) Ensure workers are safe, educated, well paid and have access to counseling.
I think Germany was right in legalizing sex work but did a terrible job in implementation. System is rife with abuses including human trafficking. But Germany is (was?) on the right track in social benefits that prevent women from being forced into sex work. North America keeps single moms with dead-beat dads in poverty.
“I don’t see anybody saying women shouldn’t be allowed to do porn if that’s what they want.”
Chomsky appeared to be saying it should be made illegal. Value judgments are one thing. But sex workers have their own values and many don’t want the state oppressing them. So this and every other problem requires big-government solutions. Small government is the problem.
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August 25, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Lavender Blume
“But, but, but, my boner!” – Possessor of male privilege
Misogynists – including those on the left – will twist logic into a grotesque form so that they can rationalize what they believe to be their right to the bodies of women.
Thanks to a relentless social conditioning process, most males (if not explicitly, then implicitly) view themselves as the naturally dominant sex and as such feel that they should get what they want, when they want it, and that women as a class – marginalized women in particular – are naturally assigned the task of serving their every desire and fantasy. Most of the time, pornography and prostitution are actually not about sex primarily; they’re about men exercising their power over women. The rush and sense of ego validation they get from seeing a woman prostrating herself, spreading herself wide, submissively, without question and without objection for their own consumption… Enjoying the objectification, the abuse, the name calling, being restrained, spat on, rammed, gagged, penetrated aggressively like a piece of inert flesh… Even after a woman has exited the industry, she remains a commodity whether she wants to be or not.
The Amazon of porn sites are replete with images of and links to porn which is violent and degrading, including content accompanied by vile language whose purpose is to dehumanize women – especially “exotic” women of colour. On the most popular and generic porn sites we frequently see women who we are told are at least 18 years of age but who are made up to look like underage girls (at one point this was illegal in the US but pornographers managed to convince the courts that depicting females in this manner was legal because it was a form of free speech – not of the women, mind you).
Often, self-styled liberals argue that the small percentage of solo male or gay porn that exists somehow balances out the huge majority of porn that features females, but no one seems to want to acknowledge one very important fact: in almost every instance, it is men who are paying for sex, downloading porn, watching women undress, harassing, raping, murdering, etc. DO NOT interfere with a man’s “right to sex” or you will be ostracized as anti-sex (because apparently it’s your ethics that are compromised when you insist that both parties pursue sexual activities with the goal of mutual satisfaction and well-being). Even when men forgo the strip clubs or the brothels, even when they confine their sexual exploits to their own homes, even then they argue they’re entitled to that T&A so they can knock one off.
Yes, let’s talk about choice – but not the choices of women. We are not the source nor are we the benefactors of patriarchy. Let’s talk about the choices of men.
Therein lies the problem.
[ed. I put in some line breaks, I hope that is okay LB. This is a really great comment :) – Arbourist]
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August 25, 2015 at 8:29 pm
Ron Waller
Men and women often have different ideas about sex because that’s that way Nature designed humans. It all boils down to strategies among genes to replicate. Since a male can pass on his genes through many different partners, his feelings (motivators) encourage that kind of behavior. Since a female has to raise a child to pass on her genes, she has to be a lot more careful. This different strategy manifests itself in different feelings. (Of course, humans are diverse and not all have the same motivators to the same degree.)
So, in my opinion, if females try to force their ideas about sex on males, it’s no different than males doing it to women. This is not to say to embrace Nature in all its gory corruption. The important thing is to develop rules/regulations in government so society can develop.
I think in terms of patriarchy, porn is a red herring. 50 years ago there was little porn, but women were not less subjugated to men. The real problem is not omega males “wanking” to porn. It’s the alpha males who are the patriarchs. They don’t fantasize. They play with women’s emotions to bed them then move on to the next. They objectify women in real life.
But where do women get the idea that their worth is defined by their physical attractiveness? Probably more from women than men. Women compete for high-ranking males. They gossip and bully other women who don’t measure up. Since women are attracted to men who are adept at the (patriarchal) culture, they wind up reinforcing it. (It seems strange to me that women look down on men’s shallow sexual desires, yet spend so much time trying to live up to them.)
The problem is the culture. It runs deep. Not easy to fix. Battles have to be carefully chosen in order to make progress in taking down the patriarchy before it destroys civilization.
I think the younger social-media generation is very enlightened in this regard. I hope they realize they have to grow up quickly before the older generations destroy the world they have to change. (Grey-haired baby boomers only care about tax cuts. Most useless generation to ever come down the pike.)
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August 25, 2015 at 11:42 pm
VR Kaine
Can I put two thoughts and two questions out here?
Two thoughts:
1) Take any widely available porn site and – as one of the commenters mentioned above – look at how either the clips or the women are described in the caption of the video, commented on, and even rated. The more abused the woman is in the video, it seems, the higher the ratings. That’s f*cked up.
2) Alongside this, it seems that a lot of women’s “porn” (if I may call it that?) – doesn’t a lot of it come from literature/books? If porn is this “art form”, free speech, or whatever its apologists want to call it, wouldn’t women be pushing to have more of it – or perhaps need more of it – in video form if it appealed to such a more sophisticated or natural part of one’s brain?
Two questions:
1) Is anyone going to even try and argue either the extent or the risk of the patriarchy, or when those sites as I mention in #1 are so massive and supported?
2) Does the fact that literature doesn’t seem to suffice for men in their delivery of porn speak to just how ratcheted up, twisted, sick, and also extreme the problem/addiction has become with men? That it requires such a “dose”?
I can’t articulate these social issues or pose these questions as well as people can here so I hope the above makes sense.
I see Chomsky’s comments, however, and I’m baffled by some of the responses. He hates it, says we could do without it, and states his reasons. Are we really trying to pull this into “yeah, but” or “yeah but whatabout” territory here that’s even defending in the slightest the status quo? I’m not a Chomsky fan but that his comments could so easily go into that territory – that concerns me if there’s a defense opposite to his points here.
If on the other hand this is all just a thought experiment, then I apologize for the extent of my concern.
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August 26, 2015 at 8:32 am
The Intransigent One
Holy shit, Vern, we agree on something. (except that I am somewhat of a Chomsky fan)
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August 26, 2015 at 2:38 pm
VR Kaine
Intransigent One,
Cool that we agree on this one, and should any future commentary by you or anyone be stating how devolved the male brain is on this subject and how extremely harmful our “acceptance” of porn is on our youth, I suspect we will be in agreement at other times down the road as well.
As for Chomsky, I may not be a big fan of his but I do have a ton of respect for MIT and they must have him there for a reason. On the one hand he’s an empire scrutinizer which I admire, yet on the other he’s an anarchist, a Holocaust denier, and other things where I lose all respect for him whatsoever.
Nonetheless, I think what he’s said here is right on the mark. Promote the positive, right? ;)
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August 29, 2015 at 9:35 am
The Arbourist
@Vern