When a dude helpfully tries to explain what feminism should be:
Hard to get around that what she postulates – if you are not agitating against and combating patriarchy, what exactly are you doing? Also, gender identity in a nutshell.
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18 comments
January 7, 2017 at 10:31 am
Godless Cranium
I know I was convonced by Elizabeth’s non-answer. It was supremely convincing and well reasoned.
Winning hearts and minds!
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January 7, 2017 at 11:02 am
The Arbourist
@GC
Happy New Year GC.
Most patriarchy deniers are, definitely, ‘unconvonced’ :)
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January 7, 2017 at 11:05 am
Godless Cranium
Haha. Happy New Year right back atcha. 😊
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January 7, 2017 at 12:46 pm
Miep
Feminism enforces standards of behavior and presentation? WTF?
Normy is a good analyst.
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January 7, 2017 at 1:06 pm
lovetruthcourage
Exactly! Good comment by Normy especially. Jeff is a pseudo-intellectual type, apparently. “TERFs” are not “enforcing a standard of behavior.” We do NOT exclude males from our spaces due to their presentation or behavior. If the man is a stranger, we likely know little or nothing about the latter, as it applies to him as an individual, though the track record of men as a group is unimpressive, and we do not wish to risk finding out anything potentially negative in a private, intimate space. Males are excluded from the category of “women” simply due to the reality that they are not women. I am excluded from the opportunities that men have simply because I am not a man. At work, I frequently have the issue of less educated and experienced men trying to “correct” me, and coming up short. They assume that they are more competent and intelligent than I am, despite all evidence to the contrary. No matter how many times I’ve proven myself, I am invited to do it again, and again, and again… Yes, women need a break from this pattern of interaction, and that means we need our own spaces.
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January 7, 2017 at 1:12 pm
The Arbourist
@LTC
And then, for bonus points, have the audacity to wonder why the ‘equality’ they bang on about, isn’t happening (and usually blaming females in the process).
Dealing with clueless dudes 24/7 exacts a toll. :/
Agreed. Having an opportunity to step out of the fire-hose of patriarchal BS is a necessity.
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January 7, 2017 at 1:21 pm
Miep
Women don’t behave the same way when men are around, even the most well-behaved men. The conditioning runs deep and male-free spaces are effective in helping to see this. This applies even if none of the women involved suffer from male-inflicted PTSD, though that increases it.
It’s really important to separate “we don’t want men around because they behave badly” from “we don’t want men around because we want to do something that simply cannot happen with men around,” because the former opens it up to endless quibbling.
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January 7, 2017 at 1:31 pm
The Arbourist
@Miep
It seems hard for many men to grasp. Hurt man-feelz aplenty.
It’s ironically unfunny when dudes also claim to understand how class works in society. :/
Very well said. :)
Such a simple concept, yet it is still regularly shouted down as going against ‘equality’ and being *gasp* exclusionary.
It’s almost like the men-folk are practising selective listening skills.
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January 7, 2017 at 2:38 pm
roughseasinthemed
Hell, women can’t define feminism. That’s thinking things that men (or trans whatevers) need to do. Stay at home, put on make-up, pretty clothes, cook and clean darling.
*I can cook* but the rest …
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January 7, 2017 at 2:40 pm
The Arbourist
@RSitM
In quite the vivacious mood this eve? :)
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January 7, 2017 at 2:54 pm
roughseasinthemed
Going to be offline for a week or two so going out perkily :)
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January 7, 2017 at 3:10 pm
The Arbourist
@RSitM
Well, ta-ta then and have a great time in the New Year. :)
See you when you get back.
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January 7, 2017 at 3:23 pm
roughseasinthemed
May have a roof fallen in, squatters and leccy cut off. Who knows. Catch you later.
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January 7, 2017 at 3:50 pm
lovetruthcourage
Miep, you are correct, but quibbling or no quibbling, the bottom line is that women do not have to justify our thoughts and actions to men, just because we are socialized to do so. We do not have to justify WHY we want women-only spaces. Men have had men-only spaces for centuries, never once bothering with justification to us. This shows the hierarchy in action— women need to justify to men’s satisfaction (in the minds of men); men do not have to say anything to women about their choices— justifiable or not. This is the crux of it.
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January 8, 2017 at 3:48 pm
Meg
@Arborist, I’ve noticed that male supremacists are eerily similar to white supremacists in that they need “The Other” (in this case women) to convince them that we deserve equal rights. Because this is all about THEM and what they think and their opinion, amirite? It’s not like they think “The Other” actually exists outside of their own head. Our lives are merely theoretical to them, as are our rights.
You are the only male atheist I have come across who “gets it” that social beliefs are still beliefs and just as idiotic and harmful as religious beliefs. Most other male atheists delude themselves that they are different from the average religionist when they are just as sexist, clueless, insane, and reality denying as the average Gob smacker.
The act of simply being alive should be proof enough to them that women and women’s biology exists, and proof that women aren’t merely castrated males. I know, I know, such a taboo thing to say these days where men’s beliefs about themselves and women literally Trumps reality.
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January 8, 2017 at 6:03 pm
The Arbourist
@Meg
One of the downsides, I suppose, of being in the category that has humanity by default…
Thanks. Proof that deviations from the mean are possible, even in when it comes to dudes. :>
That reminds me, I have to put Greer’s work into my reading pile.
I’m hoping that we can survive the upcoming years – the orange cheeto wildcard with the nuke codes down south – inspires nothing but dread. :/
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January 8, 2017 at 6:14 pm
lovetruthcourage
I did not know that you are a man! Now I am even more impressed! You are a HUGE deviation from the norm, in a good way. Thank you for that.
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January 8, 2017 at 6:20 pm
The Arbourist
@LTC
Thank you for the kind words and taking the time to share your views and experiences here on DWR. :)
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