How can one tell when men have well and truly infiltrated 3rd wave feminism? When you invite a dude to speak at your Woman’s March who is advocate for the sex industry while concomitantly blocking feminists who are fighting for female liberation. I can fucking smell the inclusivity a mile away, can’t you? Funny how inclusive only works if you bend a knee to the males in charge. Perhaps this is ‘exclusive inclusivity’ who knows – we should look to a male for guidance in with these trying feminist issues…
How about no?
Let’s look to a feminist who is at the forefront of female liberation in Canada, Meghan Murphy:
More on the Vancouver ‘Women’s March’ –
And so we march on, indeed.
Oh, and if you are indeed a member of the oppressed female sex class, the Vancouver Women’s March will block you from commenting. Not that mere blocking can stop the female fight for liberation from patriarchy. See the twitter thread here.
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41 comments
January 16, 2018 at 5:27 am
Miep
Another year of cringey embarrassment. Thank you for your solidarity.
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January 16, 2018 at 7:03 am
Carmen
This is so disgusting that it defies imagination. :(
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January 16, 2018 at 8:09 am
Bob Browning
I’ve always been for improving womens’ position in society: equal pay, rights and voice. That said, all the energy being expended here reminds me of the movement of workers vs. capitalists and the divisive identity politics used so effectively by the status quo to stall worker solidarity.
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January 16, 2018 at 8:43 am
Carmen
Well, gee Bob. Thanks for that, “You women just don’t know what’s good for you” statement. Why did you bother typing out the first sentence?
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January 16, 2018 at 5:30 pm
Bob Browning
Carmen I’m sure you know more about this than I could. I’m trying to understand. At the risk of further ridicule: If it isn’t divide to conquer, the media must be allowing the fringe voices like Heartless to dominate(sorry) and dilute the comversation.
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January 17, 2018 at 4:42 am
raunchel
Another wonderful illustration of all the things that are wrong with this inclusive approach and how it abuses the idea that we have to be nice, that women are raised with.
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January 17, 2018 at 6:02 pm
Laurie
It’s not called the women’s march so it isn’t a women’s march. Radical Feminist Women need to start from scratch and organize their own marches and make it clear it is a women’s only march, no one else is invited. Last years women’s march wasn’t a women’s march either because they invited everyone and they had a TIM (Trans Identified Male) speaker Cherno Biko who admitted in his book that he raped a TIF (Trans Identified Female). Also last year’s women’s march had no focus of issues because they didn’t want to offend anyone and the Trans activists were offended anyway. Just because these freaks have tried to take over the women’s march doesn’t mean women have to sit around and claim it was all taken away from us. Start organizing next years women’s march on your own and let them have their march while we have ours. I’d rather hear Sheila Jeffries or any other Radical Feminist at a march then these freaks anyway.
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January 17, 2018 at 6:11 pm
Miep
Assuming it’s even legal to exclude men with female legal gender markers. The noose tightens constantly. It’s rapidly getting to the point where refusing to buy into trans ideology makes one a bona fide outlaw. Look at MichFest, they can’t hold trans-exclusive events that are open to the public in Michigan any more, even with a transfer of ownership of the land to parties willing to try. It’s illegal. Everything has to be hidden or illegal or include penis more and more now. There are even trans dudes getting into nunneries now, I believe. Terrifying how much traction this has gotten in the last five years.
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January 17, 2018 at 6:24 pm
Miep
Bob, the problem with your comment is that it assumes a level playing field. What feminist organizers are experiencing from the trans lobby is a wholesale hijacking. The message is “do what we say, nothing may be questioned, women may not address anything that does not affect us, and we reserve the right to endlessly add to our list of demands.” Since oppression of women operates along an axis of sex, and TW do not share any of that with women, this is tantamount to saying women should not politically organize.
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January 17, 2018 at 7:14 pm
Bob Browning
Thank you Miep. It seems corporate media enables the wholesale hilacking. A tough nut. And ” .. not address..what doesn’t affect women..”, If it affects anyone, how can they say that w a straight made-up face? (couldn’t resist)
Last week in Black Agenda Report is a great pod-cast w McAlevey and Lizq Featherstone. I hope these voices get coverage. Trying a link here:
https://blackagendareport.com/behind-news-jane-mcalevey-organizing-power-liza-featherstone-patriarchy
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January 17, 2018 at 7:26 pm
Miep
It’s really the root of the conflict. The trans lobby is always trying to get women to shut up about our bodies, because theirs are different, but meanwhile, women are oppressed specifically because of our bodies. So if we can’t talk about ourselves as a sex class, we can’t protest. It works as a kind of muzzling.
There is another way they could do this. They could stop trying to silence us and admit that they are nonconforming men who experience discrimination, and express solidarity with us by supporting our organizing. But what this lobby does is very different and quite ominous. They are working to support the status quo, not resist.
And to be clear, I am not talking about people who have had body mods as a class. I am talking about a specific lobbying effort that has hijacked what used to be a branch of homosexual activism for its own nefarious ends. There are certainly person who have engaged in various degrees of medical “transitioning” who are most definitely resisting. But they are in the minority and they get bashed by the trans lobby too.
This is, I think, a critical distinction to make.
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January 17, 2018 at 8:54 pm
Meg
@Bob, if men wanted worker solidarity the first thing they would do is stop being hostile to women on the job. They would stop sexually harassing women when they’re trying to work. They would stop treating female bosses who don’t kiss their ass like they’re evil harpies while they congratulate men for being “strong leaders.” They would stop hiring undereducated and inexperienced men over educated and experienced women. They would stop aggressively negotiating higher salaries knowing that the women after them will be paid less. They would stop pulling underhanded bullshit to rip the rug out from women’s feet every time a woman is considered for a promotion.
You want to talk about worker solidarity? I’ll believe it when MEN themselves start practicing it instead of devoting their time to attacking female politicians and trying to prevent women from making any progress at all.
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January 17, 2018 at 9:27 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Hahahaha!!!! Yet another chapter in the “Far Left Losers and their Pitiful Results” Book. Well done again, Zeroes!!! (SJW’s? Label-Lovers?)
Deja vu all over again? Just like Occupy, yet another started-for-a-good-reason cause gets headed into the toilet by the far left. Curious – what did you all think was going to happen when you let all these mentally disturbed clowns in to your so-called “movement”? Did you think you’d get results?! Progress? RESPECT?!?!?! (Golf clap) Great job on all three, asshats!
Here’s a few lessons for the FAR LEFT LOSERS out there who cry over yet again another cause being perverted/hijacked by the losers they include in their ranks, coming from successful people who have actually achieved something that you Far Left Losers will never, ever have (real power):
1) Start caring more about the QUALITY of your mob and less about the size of it. If you don’t, and continue to invite or allow any idiot, loser, rapist, addict, freak or thug into your ranks, it will invariably continue to cause every one of the causes you pretend to care for to go to complete shit – just like Occupy, and just like this one. How long before yet another of your beloved causes becomes chock full of vandalism and assaults, getting to the point of needing rape-free zones just like your last cause because you continue to let the same sort of losers in so freely?
2) Please, please, please, please, read a book on Leadership. A REAL book on Leadership, too – not some moronic “Community Organizing” book that you losers write for your loser friends. Read something (anything!) on marketing, sales, influence, or corporate management and you’ll do a lot better than you are.
Why do you think companies spend so much time and money screening employees? To maximize outcomes and avoid/mitigate (potential) liabilities, that’s why. And guess what happens when they don’t? The shitshow you get here, plain and simple.
3) Grow some BALLS or GUTS and (finally) take some ownership of your mistakes. I know that you’re all so sanctimonious you’ll never take blame for anything yourselves, but you really should try it sometime (once in your lifetime) if you ever want your causes to achieve anything permanent.
Or, keep doing what you’re trying to do here which is blame men (and everything else) once again for your losses, all the while keep expecting those same losses to rack up. The more you try and dodge your responsibility in a situation, the more it shows that you own it and were responsible for it. To dodge like you all keep doing (and like Hillary keeps doing), doesn’t make you look smart or innocent in all of this – only more weak, more pathetic, and more responsible (not less), which you are.
And nobody backs somebody who is pathetic, either, btw. Well, loser liberals do, but none of the mainstream, and the above blog and its posts show that you ARE pathetic.
Proof? You all still seem to think that a mob behind you is not only the best, but also the only way you’re ever going to matter individually, or socially, or politically (we all know you’ll never matter economically). That COULD work for you, but there’s no leadership. Your mobs – in the way you create and manage them – do nothing to show significance or strength and instead they show weakness. With the clown shows you put on, they signal to the world that you don’t deserve power, because you exhibit none of the traits which would allow you to earn it, and none of the traits which would allow you to maintain it. The reason why Trump won and you lost is in what I just wrote, btw.
In nature, what happens to the weak? The predators and the parasites feast on them – and look what’s happening here. Nothing’s going to stop them from TRYING to feast – only you can stop them from succeeding, and by being strong – yet you can’t, and you won’t, so you’re not. Conclusion? Massive fail, yet again, and only yourselves to really blame for it.
Want to see instant improvement in your cause? Own up to your mistakes, cull your herd, adopt ANY sort of leadership best practice, and tighten your message. It’s all there in the business books and it’s been there for ages if you can get over yourselves for just a moment. Do that, and big change would come – I promise. That’s how any real, big, lasting change ever has.
4) Stop trying to circumvent the laws of nature, or life and expect to win. Change happens when there are leaders who step up – not whiners, thugs, or followers who go form some pathetic a mob. Eventually, you eat yourselves alive which is what you’re doing here.
And as for the voice and the “equality” you’re trying to achieve here, if you’re never going to lead you’ll never get it (even though I know that equality isn’t what you want). Worse, if you don’t have the guts to take risks and admit your own mistakes, you’ll never get the respect or the protection of the masses you need in order to execute change and finally get a spot at the top, either. That’s just how nature works. Everyone deserves an opportunity, but not everyone deserves power. Remember that, kids! :)
Actually – forget all that I just said. Stay arrogant, stay weak, and stay whiners. Watching you guys organize is like watching two seagulls fighting over a french fry. It’s funny!!!! I look forward to your new leader (Hailey Hairless? Rarely Painless? Barely Shameless?) representing you through this next crusade!!! Hahaha!
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January 17, 2018 at 10:18 pm
Meg
As far as the women’s march itself, did anyone expect anything less? This is a serious question. Never in my life have I read anything or saw any indication that women could have anything to themselves unless it was something men didn’t want or couldn’t benefit from personally. I even question the idea that feminism was ever purely a woman’s movement – any cursory read of feminist materials will show that many female authors (including blog authors) are obsessed with improving society not for their own sake, but for the sake of their sons, their husbands, ect. Tell me how many Internet feminists have you seen do intellectual heavy lifting, a.k.a. attempt to deconstruct male power or actively try to find answers about Patriarchy? Not very many. I can name maybe a small handful, with several runners up that at least tried to make sense of their own experiences within Patriarchy and what it said about the Bigger Picture of things (most of those blogs are long gone, though). Compare and contrast with how many “feminists” have created blogs so they can participate in misogyny against privileged women. THOUSANDS. Go to any leftist news aggregate and see how many “feminists” are treating other women like absolute fucking shit, all with the blessing of the male web site owners who refuse to do a goddamn thing about sexist comments.
The sad fact is, feminism has always harbored misogynists and Nigel pleasers. I don’t think Sonja Johnson or Andrea Dworkin would have written about misogynist women if this hadn’t already been a problem for a very long time. Sonja Johnson specifically wrote about misogynists within feminism itself. As it is, any dick loving misogynist can call themselves a feminist and demand to be accepted as equally valuable as scholars and academics even though they don’t have the education or the experience in feminism to know what the fuck they are doing at all.
Whatever “failures” you’re just now starting to notice are simply the result of misogynist women controlling the narrative – as they always have. Do you think men would allow feminism to exist if it didn’t include misogyny somehow? Men will only ever allow women to do anything as long as they prioritize misogynist women and entitled males over women who reject Patriarchy. I speak from experience that the women who take their oppression the most seriously are the ones who are most ostracized, most backstabbed, shunned, and excluded from the broader movement and narrative. This includes so-called radicals and separatists who do nothing but sit around talking shit about mothers, straight women or white women.
So as much as I sympathize with Murphy and appreciate the work at feminist current, remember that she has also made the same mistakes third wavers have by publishing works that are obviously hostile and misogynistic (including the one that defended Milo Yiannopoulos because he’s anti-trans). Since I know my opinion is worth precisely zilch to anyone, including other feminists, the only thing I can do is shrug and point out the obvious.
Misogynists are going to be misogynists. Men only reward women for submission and misogyny. Any woman who speaks out about it is summarily railroaded and dismissed. So the sun rises and sets and the rains fall on the just and the unjust.
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January 17, 2018 at 10:32 pm
Meg
Remember it was men who insisted that sexism wasn’t important enough to take seriously, and that if feminism couldn’t solve all the problems in the world that it can’t be taken seriously as a movement. Men and antifeminists spent years trolling and guilt tripping women into accepting anyone and everyone “or else not real feminism” and should be held just as responsible as the misogynist women who bought into it.
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January 18, 2018 at 2:46 am
Carmen
You in the whiskey again, Vern? ;)
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January 19, 2018 at 8:35 am
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Hi Meg,
“Remember it was men who insisted that sexism wasn’t important enough to take seriously, and that if feminism couldn’t solve all the problems in the world that it can’t be taken seriously as a movement. Men and antifeminists spent years trolling and guilt tripping women into accepting anyone and everyone “or else not real feminism” and should be held just as responsible as the misogynist women who bought into it.”
Ya, I get it – all men and women except you highborns in here are stupid and evil and yes, there is some trace evidence of misogyny to be sure. What does that have to do, however, with my statement that Far Lefties love creating a mob, that they foolishly don’t care who’s in it, and therefore they’re mostly if not entirely responsible for the shitshows like the above when they happen? Is your defense “Ya, but look what men do or have done before”? Weak.
If so, it confirms what I said about liberals never wanting to take real responsibility for anything (hello Hillary), and I would add that yet again we have another instance of the Far Left dodging a point that would require such responsibility. (And then we see Carmen’s response as well.)
When there’s a post on how women are still being told “to be the good wife” and people on the left are rightfully protesting it, I’ll probably agree with the left on it but this post is about women finally getting a large-scale venue for their voice only to have that venue hijacked by people who aren’t men but – only for the purpose of fitting your perpetual victimhood narrative – are still being called “men”. Appears to be a very weak way to play victim again which, even if that’s untrue, still doesn’t negate the fact that there’s a horrible lack of leadership within yet another far left movement and that there’s simple ways to fix it.
I’ve spent my entire career in Marketing and Leadership and there are rules that you follow when launching ANY sort of a campaign to either create or change opinions. Men didn’t make up these rules and neither did women, btw, nature did – and those methods are continuously proven and refined over hundreds of years. You’re still in the Stone Ages when it comes to it, however, and yet you think your higher morality will somehow bring you (or better yet entitles you) to different results. Never happen.
People in my world have run successful campaigns for decades and can convince people to do anything whether it’s changing what shoes they wear, or even change their governments. People in your world, however, clearly can’t convince anyone to do shit. Sure, your mobs may get your campaigns off the ground, but actually last?! Never. That’s how bad you all suck at influencing. How’s that Women’s March in Vancouver coming together, btw?
You lefties can keep trying your way – the same way – which is whine and whine and hope that the world will finally see things and do things your sanctimonious way (even though the rest of the world has dominated and devoured groups like yours for centuries), and you can still enjoy conveniently playing the victim in the meantime. or – as I’m suggesting – you can study and learn the rules and methods of your adversaries – those who have dominated you – and use them against your oppressors to get control of the system first, and then change it second.
That takes accountability, however, and leadership, being willing to change, and a little bit of reading which ironically your side demands from everyone else, and yet you can never seem to do yourselves.
It would be great to back these movements (BLM, Occupy, etc.) until all the losers you let in come forward, then it screams to the world how NOT leaders you are and therefore how little you deserve to be followed, or in some cases even listened to. They’re great causes to begin with so honestly I’m sorry to see what they end up as, but it’s your own faults why they end up that way, and it will remain your faults until the people on your side get over yourselves for a moment and start thinking.
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January 19, 2018 at 8:54 am
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Carmen!
“You in the whiskey again, Vern? ;)”
I don’t drink. I’m just working (sorta) and enjoying the good life with my better half. We were travelling too much and missed “home”. And, of course, I missed Arb! (haha!)
We also missed cooking! Fortunately/(unfortunately? – I may become obsessed) We have recently been introduced to a lovely Canadian invention called the InstantPot. An ex-Nortel guy post subprime-crash who got fired from his first startup and then goes and does this (with the support of his wife and family, of course). Amazing! Anything much different than any of the other pressure cookers already on the market? Nope – NOT A THING – so take heed of the lesson there, lefties!!! Story matters, leadership matters. No real difference yet look at what happened with Mr. Wang’s device and the power of great leadership and marketing! Love it, and love the story!! Capitalism is GREAT!!! (can we at least agree on ‘can we
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/sb-growth/ottawa-entrepreneurs-instant-pot-has-attracted-a-devoted-following-of-home-cooks/article33804422/
In the meantime, stocks are up, this cryptocurrency thing is a crazy ride, looking forward to seeing Western Europe this year, I’m trying this Paleo thing, and I still am baffled by this anomale called Trump in my home to the south but all those things go away when I think of the next slow or fast-cooked thing out of that frikken InstantPot. How are you?
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January 19, 2018 at 9:07 am
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Miep:
“What feminist organizers are experiencing from the trans lobby is a wholesale hijacking.”
Laurie:
“It’s not called the women’s march so it isn’t a women’s march. Radical Feminist Women need to start from scratch and organize their own marches and make it clear it is a women’s only march, no one else is invited.
@Meip @Laurie: Here here. While you may disagree with most of what I’ve said in my own comments, hopefully I’m allowed to agree with what you’ve said here.
To be successful, the left needs to start focusing on the quality of their group rather than just the size of it, whatever that group may be.
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January 19, 2018 at 9:19 am
Carmen
Geez Vern,
If you’re just sitting around twiddling your thumbs why don’t you try to offer some advice to Tim Horton’s? Tempest in a coffee pot there, eh?
I’ll tell you, though. This feminist is shaking her grizzled old head at some of the shenanigans these days. . . .sigh. . .
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January 19, 2018 at 5:58 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
“If you’re just sitting around twiddling your thumbs why don’t you try to offer some advice to Tim Horton’s? Tempest in a coffee pot there, eh?”
Doesn’t seem like Tim Horton’s is or would listen to anybody. I’m assuming we’re talking about Tim Horton’s owners cutting back benefits and such? If so, what a couple of pampered asses in my opinion, trying to make a protest statement when they really have no right to. Anyone know what the risk vs. return success rates of a Tim Horton’s franchise are? Super duper high. Gotta be rich to own one, pretty much guaranteed to be even more rich once you do. I could see small restaurants complaining (and why), but none of the big chains. They can accomodate higher wages they just don’t want to pay them, and it’s where I’d actually agree with the criticism against capitalism of greed & exploitation (although supported by government).
As for the shenanigans in general, I totally agree. As much as I may seem “anti-” here, I really don’t like the state things are in – especially for the people who feel powerless and that includes the bulk of the women’s movements that are just everyday women getting out there trying to be heard. Leadership of these groups might be another story (and my opinion/condeming of their practices and tactics aside), but 2018 could really be the year where we see a lot of systemic changes for women that I, for one, would want to see happen without a bunch of weirdo dudes hijacking things and getting in the way after they’ve simply been shown kindness. It’s not right.
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January 19, 2018 at 6:14 pm
Carmen
“2018 could really be the year where we see a lot of systemic changes for women that I, for one, would want to see happen without a bunch of weirdo dudes hijacking things and getting in the way after they’ve simply been shown kindness. It’s not right.”
I am in complete agreement with you here, Vern. But I turned 60 in the Fall and so many things perplex me these days. I find it disheartening and – of course – I wonder about the futures of our eleven grandchildren. My husband and I only watch TV to hear the news and I often can’t stand to watch even excerpts – especially if Herr Orange Hair comes on. :(
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January 19, 2018 at 7:00 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Hi Carmen,
Yes I am the same with TV as well now. I used to watch all of the news stations to try and get a full picture, but I find it all to be crap now. All clickbait, all hyperbole, all spin. Looking at the system in general, the institutions truly are broken down in this country and that’s a very, very troubling thing to me.
No kids or grandkids for me, but nieces and nephews and as much as they’re fantastic kids, you can already see the entitlement and narcissism eeking into their discourse from both TV and their other classmates.
Plus, coming home and saying “I hate (insert politician here)” at 8 years old – seriously?! I don’t care what side of the aisle someone is on, no 8 year old kid can truly be forming their own opinion on any party or political figure. No hint of a parent even attempting to explain things to their child – only parrot their parents’ views.
If you’ve read some of my other rants (the non-flaming ones!) I’m a big believer in true change being bottom-up, from the individual to the family, then the community on upward rather than top-down from government.
Good values being taught and practiced at the family level, then the community level – it’s bothersome that I’m seeing hardly any of that now, and instead a bunch of grievance-hustlers who I believe are taking things too far and ruining all of the decent institutions that we have. Honestly it’s encouraged me to see much more of the world than in the past – the natural wonders, ancient architecture, modern architecture, symphony, arts, etc. and then of course the awesomeness of our young ones to remind me of how amazing a culture can be, and how it’s still great to have hope.
Off to see some of those nieces and nephews now, while I’m in town. Have a good weekend. :)
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January 19, 2018 at 8:22 pm
Meg
@vern, don’t take my response to your comment as a desire to converse with you or even bother to read/respond to the predictable chest puffing machismo you post here on a regular basis. The only reason I took time out of my busy day to address anything you said is because you’re doing historical revisionism on what happened to Internet feminists. I dislike lies being presented as truth and I dislike liars (especially disingenuous ones) even more. Don’t confuse my willingness to criticize other feminists as a green light to blame them for what you and your ilk have done.
There’s a reason why nobody bothers talking to you here, and it’s not because we think we’re smart or better than anyone else. It’s because you’re arrogant, abusive, and don’t contribute a single meaningful thing to this web site. There is literally no reason to talk to you. The fact that you fail to see this would almost be humorous if it weren’t for the fact that you actively try to derail actual conversation and ruin this site by flinging shit around here like an angry baboon. I have straight up asked Arb why he allows people like you to comment here, obviously he’s an optimist that thinks there’s humanity left in you while the only proof you’ve offered is an addiction to shit disturbing.
If I’m so wrong, then what can you contribute here that will make it worth our while to talk to you? You’ve shared no knowledge, no insight, and every single post you make is the equivalent of an overgrown five year old thumbing his nose saying “my mob won, therefore we must be right.”
Obviously I’m not being fair to five year olds (who are actually more mature and intellectually honest than your posts sound), but my point still stands.
And for the record, I’m not even going to dignify your gloating with a response. In fact I didn’t even read your twenty paragraph lecture that’s probably little more than a “sit down and STFU” statement to women and minorities. Sure there’s a lot to be criticized about the left and activism in general, but at least I know what trajectory they’re aiming at – and at least it’s not the fucking Middle Ages.
I also notice you’ve been commenting here a lot more lately. What’s the matter, Vern? Did you lose your stomping grounds when Reddit banned the Incel forums? You don’t have to answer that. It’s a rhetorical question.
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January 20, 2018 at 7:28 am
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Meg,
I get that you can’t respond to any of the points I’ve either made or asked about, and why. Forget the 20 paragraphs – you can’t even address one sentence with an argument in it without pulling a “yeah, but look what men did” which sucks as an argument if it even is one. Are you still going to try and claim that leftist causes are the epitome of leadership when you continue to get the clownshows that you’re all complaining about here in the above post? Leaders are, and should be, responsible for those in their ranks – it’s part of the definition of leadership. Are your leaders the only ones who are somehow not responsible? Is the “forever blame all men” card the only card you have to play here? If so, then again I’m going to say that ignorance in that form continues to be the reasons why all your causes and results ultimately end up in shit.
“The only reason I took time out of my busy day to address anything you said is because you’re doing historical revisionism on what happened to Internet feminists.”
Busy? Haha. I doubt it, but please set the record straight for me then, and be sure to include your definition of leadership within it, please. It would also be nice to know exactly how much accountability you believe leaders should have for the members within their own groups, and to have you state that clearly.
“There’s a reason why nobody bothers talking to you here…It’s because you’re arrogant, abusive, and don’t contribute a single meaningful thing to this web site. There is literally no reason to talk to you.”
First of all, you’re the one who needs responses in here, not me. I could be considered a leper in here, never hear a word from anyone, and I could live my life just fine, but that doesn’t matter – this is your little fantasy world of comisery, not mine, and you’re apparently the one who loves getting everyone to agree with you and lick your wounds for you, not me. If that’s what you call “contributing”, no thanks.
Second, I’ll easily concede that my arrogant and abusive tone in here might be one reason for some people not responding, but you and I both know it’s not the only reason. Another is the fact that most of your “ilk” simply has no intelligent or meaningful response when it comes to comments about capitalism, leadership, money, or success (something you yourself has just proven), likely because you’ve never experienced any of them or have any clue regarding what they take to achieve. A third is that your type are infamous for being both cowards and hypocrites. For proof just look at what questions you’ve had the guts to answer (zero).
“I have straight up asked Arb why he allows people like you to comment here, obviously he’s an optimist that thinks there’s humanity left in you while the only proof you’ve offered is an addiction to shit disturbing.
Well at least there’s one optimist in here. Curious – what specific reason did Arb give you for continuing to allow my comments? There could be many. One could be that in spite of our many differences, Arb doesn’t suffer whiners who cry foul only because their side got called out for the crap results they achieved. Another may be that he doesn’t like to try and score cheap points for his little cuddle-buddies like you do. I’ve long acknowledged publicly that this is his space and that he’s free to ban me anytime he chooses to, or he can simply tell me to stuff it and be the hero. So why doesn’t he?
Perhaps the only reason I’m not banned is because Arb simply isn’t a hypocrite. Arb might loathe who I am, what I say, and how I say it, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him demand free speech on the one hand only to ban it on the other. I also have never seen him advocate against sexism or personal attacks only to partake in them himself. Third, if Arb’s side is truly stronger and classier than mine is (and of course much more enlightened), then perhaps he’d expect what you call “baboon poo” that I throw in here to be met by your side with more than just personal attacks which is all you’ve thrown so far along with dodging the question. And if I know Arb, if he even cared to respond to my tirade, he’d likely ask if what we’re seeing isn’t perhaps leadership being effed with within these groups rather than a lack of leadership altogether as I’m claiming. That would be a more gutsy and intelligent response, wouldn’t it?
Or maybe he just recognizes that even with our different approaches and arguments to the topics here, we both want the same thing – equal opportunity and justice. He takes a soft approach which you all can handle, and I take a hard approach which proves that you can’t. The jury may still be out on that one, but like I said, he’s free to ban if he wants to.
If I’m so wrong, then what can you contribute here that will make it worth our while to talk to you? You’ve shared no knowledge, no insight, and every single post you make is the equivalent of an overgrown five year old thumbing his nose saying “my mob won, therefore we must be right.”
Says the intellectual giant that you are who doesn’t even know what leadership is without cracking a dictionary, and has dodged every questions about it and her cause? Says the insightful one who, with all this vast knowledge about everything ELSE other than what actual gets results, has no results? Where has all that intellect and knowledge, or your discussions for that matter gotten you as far as furthering any of the causes discussed in here?
And here you have yet another cause gone to $hit and I’m declaring (loudly) that yet again, it’s because of leadership and accountability – two topics you clearly shy away from. It has nothing to do with “my mob won.” That’s a loser, victim-wannabe cop out. You continue to try and act all above everything and keep trying to accuse me of being worse than a five year old, yet you dodge and avoid worse than a child does. It’s pathetic.
Sure there’s a lot to be criticized about the left and activism in general
Really? Would one of those criticisms be a lack of leadership, perhaps, or your side’s approach to it? Accountability for another? The fact that it seems to care more about the size of its mob than the quality of it?
Otherwise, how about getting honest, specific, and admitting exactly what those criticisms are, and should be, based upon the results that we’re seeing above? Some of you act so tough when it comes to your positions, yet you turn and run so quickly when there’s a challenge to them head-on. If your side was so smart or so right, then your positions wouldn’t be so fragile. Don’t you all say something similar to Christians?
“but at least I know what trajectory they’re aiming at”
Haha! So?!?!?! Without any leadership or accountability, who cares where they want to go (unless you want to coddle warm fuzzy feelings). By that logic, let’s all hand out doctorates to first years AIMING at doctorates, but not willing to do any of the necessary work or take any of the necessary steps in order to get there. Let’s just keep encouraging those first years and leave it at that. Brilliant.
My “contributions”?
In here I can tell you that my contributions won’t be more coddling or more thumbs beyond your own for you to suck on, that’s for sure. Out there, however, in the real world? My contributions and those of the people around me will continue to absolutely crush yours, for sure, whether in terms of money, time, or the thing which you apparently hate the most which is results. And while all that’s going on, what’s your contribution going to be – to hide and commiserate deep within your loser mob while you hit an enter key? Wow.
And I’m glad you’ve settled the intellectual argument for us, btw. Please now show me, The Vanquished One, what all your superior intellect, attitude, worldview, and maturity have achieved for either yourself or let’s say even Feminism all these years.
Actually, that was a “rhetorical question” right back atcha, because I, too, already know the answer to what I’m asking. The answer to what your belief system has done for Feminism (or yourself for that matter) is ZERO! Zero up until now and zero for Feminism decades later, too. How can I guess this? Easy – what (or who) you clearly hate for one, why you hate it for another, and the fact that ALL people whose lives suck or who have causes that ultimately cannibalize themselves think and act exactly the way you do and are miserable for a third.
No problem, though (for me). Keep demanding – like all losers do – that someone else is responsible for your happiness or your quality of life and we (the Boogeymen) will continue to run your show. Arrogant? Yup. Proven? Yup also. Avoidable? Probably not for you, sorry.
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January 20, 2018 at 9:04 am
The Arbourist
@Vern (Jan 17th post…err rant)
The call of the keyboard gloat session was strong today Vern? Honestly, it seems like like you’re running a trolling clinic today – with a dash of Jekyll/Hyde syndrome – as you are quite capable of posting balanced, even mildly informative comments that do occasionally further the discussion.
I understand that you revel in the misery of others, but I think you may be missing your target audience a bit in your delivery. Many radical feminists and their supporters (like myself) are painfully aware of the shitshow that much of mainstream feminism has become.
We know what effective organizing is, and what is necessary to move society back toward the arc of justice that till the 80’s (ish), was actual progress.
Transactivism represents a poison dagger that is aimed at the very heart of effective feminism. TA plays on the way females are socialized and takes advantage of the societal expectations (female acceptance, submission, and peacemaking et cetera) to insert a male agenda and male priorities into what ostensibly is a movement to fight for the emancipation of females from the patriarchal structures of society.
It just doesn’t work, and many women are beginning to realize that centreing men and their queer activism in feminist activities and organizing is counter-productive.
I think most of the audience here, the ones who can tolerate my opinionated nature, are quite aware of the dire situation that feminism is in, but are also aware of the solution and the steps that will be necessary to reform and reinvigorate the movement.
We do. Many radical women are organizing, right now, for a feminism that is about centreing females and their struggle in society. The movement though, necessarily is underground, because of the power currently wielded by men to harass, shame and threaten women (more so than the usual amount of BS because with a queer veneer subjugating females is made out to be ‘progressive’) .
Social movements don’t work like that. It is a different method of operating and I’m pretty sure you know that. The model that I follow, and what I advocate for can be found here.
“We will start with the system because there is no other place to start from except political lunacy. It is most important for those of us who want
revolutionary change to understand that revolution must be preceded by
reformation.
To assume that a political revolution can survive without the
supporting base of a popular reformation is to ask for the impossible in
politics. Men don’t like to step abruptly out of the security
of familiar experience; they need a bridge to cross from their own experience to a new way.
A revolutionary organizer must shake up the prevailing patterns of their lives—agitate, create disenchantment and discontent with the current values, to produce, if not a passion for change, at least a passive, affirmative, non-challenging climate.
“The Revolution was effected before the war commenced,” John Adams
wrote. “The Revolution was in the hearts and minds of the people . . . This
radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments and affections of the
people was the real American Revolution.” -Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals p.21-22.
That’s the plan that I advocate for (see the rest of the linked document).
Knowing your opponent is key to understanding how to best them. Whether it be through peaceful compromise or violent revolution. I get that it seems like many feminists are all about blaming the men – but from a theoretical and historical perspective – they are absolutely correct in doing so. Women have been subjugated for centuries to male rule, and naming that oppression is part of the process of making the change. Because if you don’t see it, and can’t name it, you can’t change it.
The purpose of this post was to draw attention to the glaring deficits of what is supposed to be a feminist march. The transactivism you refer to is indeed the problem.
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January 20, 2018 at 9:43 am
The Arbourist
@Vern (January 20th)
Hi Vern, busy stirring away I see.
Glad you named it for what it is. :)
I’m not really concerned about whose side is stronger or classier, because that question is already apparent. The status quo is stronger and ‘classier’ because it is entrenched and thought of as the ‘normal’.
What I am concerned about is which group of reasons and explanations for the how and why society should run is better or worse. The current set of norms are quite marginal when it comes to recognizing women as fully human and full members of society. This deficit needs to be addressed as holding back half of the population because of the way they were born is retarded. We can and should do better as a society.
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January 20, 2018 at 10:59 am
Bob Browning
Re Kane ( Mr. Good,very little; Bad and Ugly, way too much ). If it’s not a man, she’s taking drugs. Also Kane won’t understand this from his point of view since as has been paraphrased, “understanding would mean the undermining of his life’s efforts”. Anyway:
Blaming men for patriarchy is legit since consciously and uncons. we’ve been holding on to it for ever.
It’s true the Womens’ Movement could use an appealing leader. But don’t blame the spokeswomen who haven’t happened to become that leader. An effective leader is rare and it is dangerous to the power establishment that you collaborated with (apparently successfully- golf clap) See MLK,Jr’s fate for example of how bad your system is at the core. It’s disgusting to see that you view Trupm as a leader. He’s a huckster. He’s a timely convenience for the elite capitalist rulers- distasteful even to them but convenient and useful. Turmp isn’t “responsible”- he’s a loser in the business realm. If he can’t turn that around as POTUS, he’ll be the biggest loser of all time. His administration is all loser generals and rich donors. He doesn’t lead anything but the twitter distraction/ entertainment show and I doubt much of that is original. You say, ” responsible for the people”. He’s hardly that. He should be responsible”to the people” but we know how crony capitalism works: few winners, mostly serfs,; very ugly.
In your magnanimous lengthy( volume isn’t convincing) rant/ lecture, it’s also true that in-fighting is divisive. It’s an old tool of your capitalists. United workers, perhaps led by women, is the only way to change the power structure and end the feudal system.
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January 20, 2018 at 12:39 pm
Meg
@Vern, what part of “I don’t want to talk to you” and “you don’t have to answer that” didn’t you understand the first time around? Seriously, stop acting like you give the tiniest shits what I think about anything because obviously you don’t. Like most men, you aren’t interested in actually talking to me, you’re just here to put me in my place and tell me to STFU.
Men like you are the reason why rape and sexual harassment are epidemic problems in the western world. No matter how many times a woman says NO, your inflated egos and morbid sense of entitlement are somehow more important than a woman’s basic human right to not be forced to put up with your obnoxious bullshit.
Yet you would be the first one to hulk out in narcissistic rage if women dare suggest that men are rapists. If women can’t trust men to back off when we say “don’t talk to me” how can we trust men to back off when we say no to sex? The answer is obvious – WE CAN’T, therefore men are going to either have to do something about their own behavior or stop complaining about being seen as rapists.
And no, I’m not reading your pseudointellectual crap, but judging by Arb’s response to your screed, you seem to think I answer to you and that you’re in a position to interrogate me like a regular witch hunter. As if you have the right to demand I waste my time playing ball with your shameless mind games. If I wanted to be host for parasite, I would go to my local pond and put a leech to put on my arm, not allow you to continue to psychologically feed off of my pain and frustration as you lord over me with an assumed smug sense of authority.
If you want to know my thoughts on transactivism or the trans issue you could have just asked – you’d be surprised at my opinion actually. But since you’re hell bent on being an oppressive jackass with zero self awareness, the privilege to engage or even ask my opinion about anything as been revoked indefinitely.
“You’re making personal attacks” (cue the world’s tiniest violin)
You say that as if you haven’t been attacking people here for months if not years. This is exactly why I don’t waste my time reading what you say – you have a depraved lack of respect for honestly or reality, and like Donald Trump you just make shit up as you go along and demand everyone else kiss your ass and thank you for it. Yeah, go ahead and pretend that’s just “name calling” and not a truthful assessment of your ridiculously boorish behavior.
JUST SO I’M CLEAR:
The ONLY reason I’m even bothering to type this is because men are the first ones to tell women that we deserve to be oppressed if we don’t stand up to them, but then they’re also the first ones to get abusive and tell us to STFU when we do.
Since I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t, I’d might as well just give Vern the fucking finger and be done with it. He’s obviously so accustomed to telling women to suck his dick he think I ought to do it by rote – then gets viciously indignant when I refuse. Sorry not sorry Vern, I guess you’re just going to have to accept there’s one woman in this world who won’t suck your dick or pretend you’re a nice guy when you obviously aren’t. Thank your lucky stars that’s the only thing in this world that infuriates you, as if the loss of numerous lives to white supremacist terrorism in 2017 isn’t sufficient to make you realize that not everything in this world is about YOU.
TL;DR:
I rarely tell anyone to shut up about anything, but I’ll make an exception in this case since Vern is hell bent on silencing feminist critique:
Hey Vern, take your own advice and just shut the fuck up. It’s not like you’re interested in having an actual conversation or contribute anything to feminist discussions. You can’t even condescend to read ONE FUCKING BOOK before spewing like you have diarrhea of the mouth. The best you have to offer is just more gaslighting mansplaining horseshit where you demand that women should bend over backwards to please men and revolve everything around men, as if that hasn’t been the status quo since forever.
LOL@these self styled political mavericks who are little more than infantile and regressive egotists who still think their feelings are more important than women’s lives. People are fucking dying because of their shitty selfish backlash, but somehow they still make it all about THEM.
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January 20, 2018 at 3:30 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Meg –
Check the history – it’s you saying STFU, not me. It’s you that decided to make it personal and enter a fight trying to be a big person yet the only tools you could bring were those of either the pathetic or the hypocritical, even with all your supposed moral high ground and intellectual authority. Everything you complain about the other side doing, you freely go and do yourself the first chance you get, and in all that, not once – ONCE – can you address any of my arguments head-on. All your pity-partying, all your hyperbole, all your labelling are just smoke and mirrors the rest of us laugh at. Plus, where has it all gotten you in life? Likely nowhere significant for one, and clearly absolutely miserable for another.
Call me out and yah, I’ll call you out in return – even if you do take the coward route and slam the door right after you speak. And as for reading a book, I do – much more than you do, clearly. But again, let’s talk quality over quantity here: the ones I read make me more wealthy, get me into policy circles, and get me into charities with a vast network of people I can call on and provide things for. Where do the books you read get you? Is it so wrong to suggest that – if you’re trying to lead a group or influence a culture that you actually read a book on leading a group or influencing a culture? Yet look how offended you get.
That’s fine, Meg. Keep blaming everyone else for your problems and continue to be part of the faction that always ruin your causes. My guess is a year from now I’ll come back here and you’ll still be just where you are now – playing victim, crying foul, and demanding that everyone else (including Arb for who he blocks) be responsible for your happiness.
“LOL@these self styled political mavericks who are little more than infantile and regressive egotists who still think their feelings are more important than women’s lives. People are fucking dying because of their shitty selfish backlash, but somehow they still make it all about THEM.”
I don’t think anyone running your show is funny, Meg, but continue to laugh all you want as though it’s somehow condescending or insulting when it isn’t. (Just goes to show the fantasy world you’re in, anyways.)
And I guess fine that you fantasize about people “dying” because of us, too. People at and live because of us, because we teach the principles that create and build rather than tear down and divide. Case in point – we’re here in Denver investing in small businesses and SWAM’s, plus starting discussions on building a new hospital. But as I said in the beginning, Meg, we’re all evil and we’re all stupid – I get it. Not all of us are as fraglle as you, and not all of us are so easily hung up on labels as you are, so feel free to call me or whoever else you hate on my side whatever you want to – it makes no difference.
In the meantime, enjoy the view from up on your high horse while the rest of us people down here do something more to get our sense of significance from than just being sexist, name-calling, and hitting an enter key as though we’re tough.
Happy Sunday. :)
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January 20, 2018 at 4:04 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
@Bob B:
Re Kane ( Mr. Good,very little; Bad and Ugly, way too much ). Haha. All in the eye of the beholder, so all good. Insults towards me are all fine.
“If it’s not a man, she’s taking drugs. Also Kane won’t understand this from his point of view since as has been paraphrased, “understanding would mean the undermining of his life’s efforts”.
A very curious statement, since nothing has been undermined or (I think) would be undermined. In fact, some of the views I’ve evolved to from Arb’s blog have actually helped me become more successful – so what is it that would be undermined, or what would be the expected outcome? Can you explain more?
“Blaming men for patriarchy is legit since consciously and uncons. we’ve been holding on to it for ever.”
I don’t disagree on that. However, being near the top of it in some cases and seeing what goes on, I don’t think it’s as strong as those looking up at it believe it to be to the point where it’s truly this huge insurmountable evil that can’t be conquered, because I see it being conquered daily by certain times of men and women from all walks of life. To be more precise, where I attack it here is when people try and use it as an excuse to PLAY victim and demand (cowardly) that others do their work for them. Nobody is truly powerless, and when leaders claim that they are I believe it’s total bullshit that they’re trying to sell us.
“It’s true the Womens’ Movement could use an appealing leader. But don’t blame the spokeswomen who haven’t happened to become that leader. An effective leader is rare and it is dangerous to the power establishment that you collaborated with (apparently successfully- golf clap) See MLK,Jr’s fate for example of how bad your system is at the core.
”
Great point re: MLK’s fate and I actually agree with “my” system being bad at the core, but respectfully I believe trying to state the risk of being knocked off now as being the same as it was for someone in the 60’s, I think that’s a cop-out. There’s way too much visibility nowdays, and I don’t think an MLK or a JFK could ever be pulled off with the tools of exposure we all have today. And although I don’t wish this on anybody stepping up to be a leader, don’t MLK’s words hold true that “if a man has not discovered something that he will die for, he isn’t fit to live”? Also, check out Eve Ensler’s TED talk if you haven’t already. She talks about how these women around the world “have broken out of the existing frame of victim and perpetrator. Their own personal security is not their end goal. And because of that, because rather than worrying about security because the transformation of suffering is their end goal, I actually believe they are creating real safety and a whole new idea of security.”
It’s clearly not my place to say what someone should or shouldn’t risk – that choice is clearly their own – but I can’t say I join you in giving these poorly run campaigns a free pass when they continue to stay wrapped around the axle of the “victim/perpetrator” Crazy 8. Being a true leader isn’t a job. It comes from passion and purpose where people are called to the role and take it on full-hearted – often by accident.
“It’s disgusting to see that you view Trump as a leader.”
Filling a leadership role isn’t the same as being a leader. There are paycheck leaders and inspiring leaders, and I don’t think I’ve said I support Trump as a leader or that he’s inspiring (to me). Check out French and Raven’s Powerbases as there’s many Powerbases one can possess and lead from. Yet another thing from the corporate world that these grass roots organizations could learn from. With the rest of what you say about Trump and his Admin, I’d agree with most all of it except two things: your comments about the US Generals in office – I’ve met a few of them (not Mattis), and the ones I’ve met are great men. Second, unions – in my opinion ham-fisted union thuggery or reintroducing the union concept as a solution is in no way going to be a solution any more than ham-fisted government or crony capitalism trying to break them will be, and it’s a fool’s errand to try.
Unions need to arrive in the 21st century, and they’re going to need a figurehead again like they had with Hoffa. Today, every successful “brand” has to have a public face – no longer can a company just be a board of directors in the shadows and remain successful, I believe. Celebrity CEO’s dominate the followings, and we need the same in Unions and I think the women’s movement (note: not that they have to be celebrities in the first place, but they should probably be prepared to become one upon taking on the role.)
Appreciate your thoughts, Bob.
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January 20, 2018 at 4:14 pm
Meg
Oh vern, just shut the fuck up and go away already.
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January 20, 2018 at 4:24 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
@Arb,
“Glad you named it for what it is. :)” Haha! Love it!\
“I’m not really concerned about whose side is stronger or classier, because that question is already apparent. The status quo is stronger and ‘classier’ because it is entrenched and thought of as the ‘normal’.
What I am concerned about is which group of reasons and explanations for the how and why society should run is better or worse. The current set of norms are quite marginal when it comes to recognizing women as fully human and full members of society. This deficit needs to be addressed as holding back half of the population because of the way they were born is retarded. We can and should do better as a society.”
I can see that as a vision and mission, but here again is where I say there’s a certain way to turn that into action and results when a leader is supposed to step up and run things. Any business that is attempted to be started up or ran in the same way would immediately be run into the ground with politics, gender, or whatever not being in any way a part of that – it’s nature and organizational reality.
So why is it that best practices from that world – which would help them not only get off the ground faster, but be far more sustainable and effective as well – get dismissed so quickly, and often without even a single thought in their direction? Worse, to dismiss them as being “too capitalist” or “too male”, and thus having these groups and their leaders be immediately guilty of the very things that they say they hate in the first place (sexism, ignorance, oppression, denial) – and thinking that’s going to go anywhere?
Your side seems to still be getting so hung up on the who and being all proud of your labels that it seems to be completely neglecting the what and the how of how to actually get things done which in my view makes people total idiots. And for the record, I tell male business owners who act just as ignorantly the exact same thing – people work one way, business works one way, and culture works one way. Follow the lessons of those who know how to influence a mass culture in as little as 30 seconds or suffer the same fate as the fools who try and make some sort of political or moral statement by avoiding them.
These rules aren’t “capitalist” rules, and they’re not “male” rules, they’re simply organization rules that are open to literally ANYBODY. Why not have a bunch of otherwise very smart, passionate, and intellectual people grab hold of the tactics and principles and beat the capitalists and Patriarchy-protecting men at their own game? And, with the playbook so easily available, it’s tough love, but anything otherwise is not only arrogant, but I would argue both foolish and cowardly as well which is why I call it out as such.
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January 20, 2018 at 5:40 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
@Arb,
The call of the keyboard gloat session was strong today Vern? Honestly, it seems like like you’re running a trolling clinic today – with a dash of Jekyll/Hyde syndrome.
I know. Bigtime, hey?!
I understand that you revel in the misery of others, but I think you may be missing your target audience a bit in your delivery. Many radical feminists and their supporters (like myself) are painfully aware of the shitshow that much of mainstream feminism has become.
So right on me missing the target audience of my delivery. The jerk or troll label is correct on that point because once I hear too much pity-partying for the sake of pity-partying, I start not to care. A personal failing at times that my partner often whips my ass for, but c’est moi.
As for reveling in the misery of others, not quite. If I think someone is trying to play victim and dodge the question or the problem, I’ll kick around their misery – ad nauseum if need be – especially if they’re tring to fake courage.
Or, if someone’s trying to sit on a high horse and point a finger at someone that they don’t have the guts to point at themselves, I’ll jump on their misery there, too, and if they don’t have enough of it I’ll create some more if need be. Same as if someone tries to hand off their own responsibility for something just to try and appear pious – I’ll call out that sort of thing, too. No room in my world for people who try and act tough yet are total cowards, and still try to manipulate. Those are the worst kind of people, in my opinion, and are up there with peds and rapists in my mind since they share the same playbook.
Revel in misery as in kicking someone when they’re down when the above didn’t occur, however? I don’t think I’ve ever taken someone’s genuine loss and have reveled in it like you’re suggesting. If you have something to show otherwise then I’d appreciate you showing me.
“We know what effective organizing is, and what is necessary to move society back toward the arc of justice that till the 80’s (ish), was actual progress.”
And this is what I totally challenge. I’ve seen nothing so far that shows any evidence of what you’re claiming and I’m in the business of spotting it. You had addicts, rapists, and thugs that ruined Occupy. You had vandals and anarchists ruin #Resist. Now you have a bunch of “Weirdo Transvestites” (an Eddie Izzard reference for anyone who cares) who are ruining/hijacking the Women’s Movement. There are clear, obvious things your side does to let these things happen (and happen because it seems some moral superiority fantasy overrides reality). Each time it happens, what do you see? Nothing but a bunch of people playing their Victim Card again, going around circle-jerking and virtue signaling about how righteous they are, only to say let’s take our moral superiority one more time and try again. It’s stupid.
And it reeks of Groupthink, too, which is straight out of business books going back 40 years. Your side is not only obviously to it happening, it seems to go out and even promote it! And, just like with Groupthink, any suggestions as to how to not have their collosal failures happen yet again and what do they do? Pull a page right out of the sore loser playbook, which was the same playbook and mindset that caused their otherwise good cause to go to shit in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Here I’ll lay the gauntlet down again: if the “radical left” or whatever is causing the shitshows like Occupy or TrannyGate above is so smart, then how come they fall victim to something that every business knows how to spot and solve going back as far as 40 years ago? Simple: because it has nothing to do with smarts. Rather, it has to do with arrogance which yes – I challenge on this blog full on because it happens to ruin causes that I have in common with this blog.
“Transactivism represents a poison dagger that is aimed at the very heart of effective feminism. TA plays on the way females are socialized and takes advantage of the societal expectations (female acceptance, submission, and peacemaking et cetera) to insert a male agenda and male priorities into what ostensibly is a movement to fight for the emancipation of females from the patriarchal structures of society.
It just doesn’t work, and many women are beginning to realize that centreing men and their queer activism in feminist activities and organizing is counter-productive.”
Then if they are just realizing it now, they haven’t known what “effective organizing is” and how to achieve actual progress. A key point of strategy in business is control over your brand, and there’s business books that will show people how to do it.
I think most of the audience here, the ones who can tolerate my opinionated nature, are quite aware of the dire situation that feminism is in, but are also aware of the solution and the steps that will be necessary to reform and reinvigorate the movement.
I hope so. We’ll see. Watching the marches right now on TV. Think we talked about this before – the hats were BRILLIANT – centralizing around a terrific symbol and great theme that can appeal to so many. Absolutely a brilliant tactic that’s pure marketing genious. More ideas like that need to come forward.
Many radical women are organizing, right now, for a feminism that is about centreing females and their struggle in society. The movement though, necessarily is underground, because of the power currently wielded by men to harass, shame and threaten women (more so than the usual amount of BS because with a queer veneer subjugating females is made out to be ‘progressive’) .
OK. I trust your word on it re: being underground, and remain hopeful. Although I can easily doubt that I’m any bit welcome in that movement, but honestly, if it is what you say it is then it would have my full support and resources if/where necessary.
The model that I follow, and what I advocate for can be found here…”
Adams and Alinsky… nice. :)
Both smart men, but I believe some of their words and suggestions have become dated due to how messaging is originated, disseminated, and controlled in our time. Eithers’ advice also doesn’t take care of the “been there, done that” problem that you run into when previous models are tried once again. You run into that problem in companies, such as when you hear “Good to Great” quotes or someone comes into your company to (once again) talk about vision, mission, and values or in a more extreme political example, words or tactics of Hitler’s will never have the same sort of effect ever again. We always need something elevated, something new.
Plus, the hyper-polarization has to be taken into account too, I believe. I think Adams and even Ailinsky were speaking to a more civilized period in our society, where yes – violence could occur but there was still a general respect for peoples’ right to vote a different way. Now we don’t have that.
Last would be that I believe even with Adams, the military tactic of the day was pretty much full frontal assault. Today, I find that to be a highly ineffective and at the very least risky if not foolish strategy. The “catalysts” for change nowdays aren’t movements. They’re individuals, in my opinion – like spies of sorts adopting guerilla tactics, getting in behind the lines, and wreaking havoc as one until the mob forms behind them. They don’t wait for the mob first, and that’s why I think they’re far more effective at influence. Elon Musk. Rose McGowan. Donald Trump (ugh). Not sure if I can make all that make sense in a couple paragraphs, but it would be cool to discuss further somewhere down the road. In short, though, I think the “start with the system” shit is way outdated. McGowan didn’t, Trump didn’t, Musk didn’t, tech startups didn’t, crypto people didn’t. F#ck the system. We’ll just outsmart and start with our own.
“Knowing your opponent is key to understanding how to best them. Whether it be through peaceful compromise or violent revolution. I get that it seems like many feminists are all about blaming the men – but from a theoretical and historical perspective – they are absolutely correct in doing so. Women have been subjugated for centuries to male rule, and naming that oppression is part of the process of making the change. Because if you don’t see it, and can’t name it, you can’t change it.”
Sure. It’s not the blame itself that I ever take issue with. It’s using the blame as an excuse to play victim forever and do nothing that I always have a problem with – IF, and only if, the person doing it is trying to actually be a perpetrator through doing it or it wrecks a cause they pretend to be supporting.
I’d add to your statement above: we also have to know ourselves and be able to look at ourselves so that our egos don’t make us tactically or galactically stupid and ineffective. Otherwise, it’s our internal environment – not our external one – that truly is the cause of our misery, misfortune, and demise. Someone may be fully right about the Rothschild’s or Monsanto ruining their farm, for example, and justified in their anger, but Monsanto or the Rothschild’s aren’t an excuse as to why someone couldn’t have learned a new marketable skill in their own time as well.
“Watching you guys organize is like watching two seagulls fighting over a french fry. It’s funny!!!!
I can be such a dick sometimes! I forget sometimes that I’m around more sensitive people here. Will work on that – promise.
The purpose of this post was to draw attention to the glaring deficits of what is supposed to be a feminist march. The transactivism you refer to is indeed the problem.
Nope. It’s a symptom of the problem, not the problem because the symptoms keep recurring in some way, shape, or form. Businesspeople often make the same mistakes in their companies:
http://www.spartina.com/items/7812-solve-problems-not-symptoms
https://www.automation.com/automation-news/article/root-cause-analysis-treat-the-problem-not-the-symptom
http://www.threesigma.com/problem_solving.htm
A long reply to you, Arb, but hopefully a constructive one in your mind. Would love to hear your responses but understand if you’re moved on. Cheers.
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January 20, 2018 at 6:23 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Oh vern, just shut the fuck up and go away already.
Aw, Meg. Not going to happen. I heard about these Safe Rooms, though. In addition to cartoons and crayons, they have things like puppies and Playdoh in them. They’re designed for people like you, apparently, when you’re in situations like this one. Have you tried one yet?
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January 20, 2018 at 6:36 pm
Meg
Neo-Nazis Say They’ll Protest A Women’s March In Tennessee
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nazis-knoxville-womens-march_us_5a638ca3e4b0e56300702a63?section=us_us-news
I’m willing to bet dimes to dollars Vern is going to be there, cheering on the Nazis and hoping someone drives a car into a crowd of women.
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January 20, 2018 at 6:40 pm
Meg
Antifeminism and white supremacy: Joined at the hip for more than a century
You can’t participate in misogyny without participating in racism, and vice versa.
Men like Vern know this, they just don’t care. They turn a blind eye to racism and anti-Islamism as long as they can treat women like w****.
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January 20, 2018 at 6:43 pm
Meg
Antifeminism and white supremacy: Joined at the hip for more than a century
Another reminder of what men like Vern stand for.
Misogyny feeds into racism and racism feeds into misogyny.
He doesn’t care who gets deported or shot in the street as long as he gets to treat women like shit.
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January 20, 2018 at 8:06 pm
Vesuvius R. Kaine
Haha! And further down and down Meg goes, now desperately resorting to Nazi comparisons. So pathetic, so predictable, and yet so cute when she tries something like a comeback.
The safe room must have kicked you out for trying to shame and castrate all those cute little puppies again. You sure hate them, don’t you! Were you certain you saw little black moustaches under their noses, or swaztikas in their eyes? They never had a chance, did they?
And tell me – the one that got away – did he morph into that Big Bad Patriarchy Monster that you think is now chasing you? After all, “People are fucking dying because of their shitty selfish backlash” and they’re terrorizing the countryside, aren’t they?! Run, everybody, run!!! (Play victim, Meg, play victim!!!)
“Dimes to dollars”. Oooh! Meg lays down a challenge! “Kicks male puppies, goes all Alpha” – got it!
Sure, Meg, I’ll take you up on that bet. For one, you’re an idiot and will lose betting basically like you do at everything else, and for another, people like you have no clue about business or math, so I’ll get to rip you off that way, too.
And it’s not like I’d be taking YOUR money, anyways – probably just my tax money back since you sound jobless and homeless. Are those dimes you’re betting coming out of a welfare check of some kind, Meg? Perhaps some dimes that you stole out of your Grandma’s Swear Jar, or the collection plate at Church? Or did you finally take in all those beer cans in?
Poor, poor Meg. Maybe just go take a nap since you’re out of your league.
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January 21, 2018 at 11:47 am
Meg
@Arb, I’m going to address you because this is YOUR blog and I will never have anything to say to Vern.
No doubt you’re annoyed that I criticize feminists for being misogynists, but this is part of the reason I do. You talk a lot about how transactivists bully and harass radfems out of being able to speak about sexism and male violence, but then you allow the same narcissistic rage to happen right here on your own platform. You say that transactivists are doing the work of the Patriarchy but then you’re okay with neo-masculine men doing the same thing here. And yeah, I’m annoyed by that. I’m tired of feminists telling me that they support women then turning around and doing the exact opposite. It’s not just you, it’s A LOT of feminists who do this. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen a feminist blog steamrolled by a shameless male supremacist and it won’t be the last.
Whenever I post something here, I expect disagreement and debate. I come to the table prepared to make my case and to defend it. But I get the impression that I’m expected to kiss ass and refrain from sounding too strong in my convictions or else posters like rabid pitbull Vern will be loosed from the fucking cage. This is YOUR blog, after all. YOU decide who posts and doesn’t post, YOU choose the tone, YOU choose how your readers will be treated, and I get the distinct impression you’d rather have abusive men run roughshod here than women who have actual experience and knowledge in feminism. If not, Vern would have been gone a LONG time ago. He’s lucky I don’t moderate the comments here because I wouldn’t have put up with his shit from day one. I’m not sure if this is a cultural difference between Canadians and Americans, but what I do know for sure is that abusive personalities only escalate. They NEVER get better, not without professional help and it’s not the Internet’s job to provide that.
There is a difference between having a difference of opinion and being abusive. I shouldn’t have to explain the difference. Sure, go ahead and criticize me for finally (FINALLY) telling Vern to shut the fuck up and go away. I fully expected someone to say “don’t say that” to me, and I fully prepared a statement to say that SOMEONE needs to stand up to bullies like him, and SOMEONE needs to do something about his behavior before people get fed up and finally say something. Go ahead and tell me it’s a problem to call Vern a Nazi sympathizer when there’s abundant proof that white supremacists and antifeminists have been supporting each other for years. Go ahead and lecture me about tolerating differing opinions when there’s a difference between disagreeing and flat out abuse.
Vern’s opinions are not merely unpopular. This is a guy who thinks politics is a game when peoples live are at stake, and that anyone who isn’t as vicious as he is must be weak and incapable of intellectual thought. He represents everything wrong about Patriarchy including how women are treated, but he’s given free reign on this blog to treat women any way he wants. Trump has emboldened men like him to behave as horribly as they want with zero accountability – is this what you want too? Or are you only willing to do something about men like Vern if the woman he’s attacking agrees with you about everything and supports a third party?
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January 21, 2018 at 2:36 pm
The Arbourist
Good day folks.
Let me reprise the ground rules I have here. This can be found at the top of the blog.
The suggestions are as follows:
1. When commenting please take the time to consider what the person is saying.
2. Be charitable when engaging a person in debate.
3. Try and stick to debating the position a person takes, as opposed to the person.
4. Be aware that the gratuitous use of invective is not useful in strengthening your arguments.
These things don’t seem to be happening in this thread. Therefore this thread is now closed.
In the future, dear readers and commentors, please be mindful of the guidelines here at DWR.
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