The radical form of Islam being preached in Afghanistan (and other places) is a symptom of the upheaval and chaos that is endemic of the region. With no security, no law and no justice, it is who has the biggest gun makes the rules. Currently the radical followers of islam occupy that role and the repression of women is the cornerstone of their particularly warped take on the religion of “peace”.
We recently received a comment on a similar post about the insane ass-backwardness of Islam, and religion in general, decrying the lack of respect and tolerance for religion and religious practices.
“While I have little respect for religion I have too much respect for the people that do practice it to support a Draw Mohammad Day, or for that matter a Piss on a Crucifix Day. It just seems like another opportunity for otherwise sane progressive people to join with the far right in attacking Muslims.”
This seems to be a fairly mainstream progressive opinion. Fairly wrong as well, but wrongness aside, the comment lends insight to one of obstacles progressive thinking needs to overcome when arguing the issues. Our opponents, usually people who sponsor socially regressive policies (pro-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-socialism etc), decry progressive positions (for a myriad of BS reasons but I’m making a point here about cultural relativity and ‘tolerance’) because of the lack of an absolute moral position. Because progressives usually are not as xenophobic, racist or intolerant as regressive voices the progressive position is framed as being a moral willy-nilly free for all that permits all behaviour because it is believed that morality and the behaviour that stems from said behaviour is based on the society and culture being viewed.
Cultural Relativism (CR). CR is great in small doses, but should not be used as a basis for moral judgments because human societies are capable of cruel despicable laws/customs that by deontological standards, are atrocious. Allow me to cut off the boilerplate religious response to my admission that CR is heavily flawed when it comes to making moral judgments by saying that a supreme being in any form is not necessary for the formation of a moral system. We can make moral judgments without divine guidance or literacy in irrelevant ancient texts by using our reason and intuitions alone (see Utilitarianism and Deontological Moral systems).
In the video included in this post women, housed in their burka cloth prisons, are risking their lives for the simple act of attempting to become literate. They face persecution and death simply because they wish to free themselves from the torpid ignorance which is religiosity. So can one simply say that the cultural practice of cloistering and oppressing half the population merely because they have the double XX chromosome is a good one because we must only judge societies by their own intrinsic standards?
The argument is a gross simplification of what CR is, but some progressives seem to endorse the idea that tolerance means we have to condone the reprehensible actions of others because it is “OK” in their society. Basing your morality on any one system is a recipe for moral failure as all systems have inherent flaws that can amplify human suffering if taken as gospel.
The problem with morality is that, by nature, it is inherently complex and comes with many layers of conflicting values and ideas that must be judiciously weighed before coming to an (often unsatisfactory) answer. Regressives have little time for complexity and depth of thought and often adumbrate easy moral solutions based on unrealistic binary models.
So, to address the issue raised in the video clip, yes it is morally and functionally wrong to prevent women from becoming literate and educated. One must look at the problem not only through the prism of the CR analysis but also Utilitarian and Deontological moral systems. If all societies were to adopt the fundamental tenets of Islam would people be better off? Does the system promote great amount of utility for individuals and society? When cast in the light of a multifaceted moral analysis a moral stance can be taken that is nuanced and guided by rational thought (rather than musty rules from a magic a book). The system (delusional religious belief) that encourages such egregious misogynistic cultural practices must therefore be criticized for promoting such a view of women.




31 comments
May 8, 2011 at 8:29 am
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
You get a big amen from me ;) Religion is nothing more that a power play from those who wish to control the masses in order to further their own ambitions. This is probably why religion is such a huge part of politics.
Religion has always raised some niggling questions for me. Such as how would most people act if they did not have a moral instruction book? It just seems that most people act with some sort of civility because of the threat of hell. What would happen if such a threat was never an option?
As an atheist, my moral standards come from reasoning and a sense of fair play. If some of these people commit acts of brutality in the name of their god, just think about how they would act without one. That, scares the crap out of me!
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May 8, 2011 at 8:38 am
The DWR Sunday Religious Disservice – Keeping Women Scared and Ignorant (via Dead Wild Roses) « Beneath the Tin Foil Hat
[…] The radical form of Islam being preached in Afghanistan (and other places) is a symptom of the upheaval and chaos that is endemic of the region. With no security, no law and no justice, it is who has the biggest gun makes the rules. Currently the radical followers of islam occupy that role and the repression of women is the cornerstone of their particularly warped take on the religion of "peace". We recently received a comment on a similar post … Read More […]
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May 8, 2011 at 11:52 am
Vern R. Kaine
Great post, and brilliant breakdown of the issues. My two main “macro” problems with any religion as a whole is that 1) it attempts to control through fear of consequences (guilt + shame = fear of being unworthy), and yet 2) at the same time it seems to absolve people of responsibility for the consequences (“Allah/God’s will”, the devil made me do it, Bible/Koran as “law”, etc.)
These are two opposites that simply can’t exist in one’s head without that person going crazy, and look at the results.
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May 8, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Alan Scott
Why do you people paint all religions with this gigantic broad brush ? Many times in history religious groups were the only source of knowledge either where civilization had broken down or where it was dominated by oppressive governments . Many times religious groups were the only ones who pushed education for women . Or small religious groups were the only viable alternatives to the dominate state religion that had become corrupted .
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May 9, 2011 at 6:02 pm
Mystro
You are equivocating ‘religions’ with ‘religious groups’. Religions are full of superstitious nonsense that causes serious harm to people. Religious groups are capable of doing good things in spite of their religious foundation.
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May 10, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro ,
” Religious groups are capable of doing good things in spite of their religious foundation. ”
Bad people sometimes do good things ?
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May 11, 2011 at 12:11 am
Mystro
“Bad people sometimes do good things ?”
No, you are still equivocating.
Good people in bad institutions sometimes do good things in spite of the bad institutions they belong to because they are good people.
Unfortunately they can also do bad things because of the bad institution they belong to, not because they are bad people.
The problem is not the individuals. It is the religion.
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May 11, 2011 at 8:44 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro ,
So you believe that nothing spiritual exists ? Anyone who believes in anything spiritual is in a bad institution, even though they themselves may be good ? Logically since any religion is bad, and in that each one believes that they are the one and only true path, they are all equally bad ? Not one is any better than another ?
By the same token, while you may have bad people who are Atheists, Atheism is essentially a good institution because it is a truth ?
Does that accurately state your beliefs ? I merely wish to clarify your position in my mind .
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May 11, 2011 at 10:17 pm
Mystro
“So you believe that nothing spiritual exists?”
Definitely not in the traditional sense of ‘spiritual’.
“Anyone who believes in anything spiritual is in a bad institution, even though they themselves may be good?”
The ‘they themselves may be good’ part is bang on. But someone might, for example believe in sock gnomes, mischievous spiritual creatures that steal socks from drying machines, but only ever the left one of a pair. In this case they are not part on any kind of institution. And as they don’t take unquestionable divine orders from the gnomes, it isn’t particularly bad, just a bit silly.
“Logically since any religion is bad, and in that each one believes that they are the one and only true path, they are all equally bad ? Not one is any better than another ?”
No, because they are all based on faith, they are all equally valid as sources for truth (that is to say: not at all). That has nothing to do with how bad they are. The consequences of a group’s/individual’s faith is what determines how bad it is. But even relatively benign faiths suffer the problem of not being able to criticize the more destructive faiths without being hypocritical.
” Atheism is essentially a good institution because it is a truth ?”
There isn’t really an atheist institution. It is a position on a question. When someone asks ‘do you believe in god(s)?’, the atheist answers ‘no’. For example, your non-hinduism isn’t an institution, nor is your non-islamic status. For all the thousands of faiths you don’t belong to, I just belong to one less.
So atheism arises from one good (namely caring that your beliefs are based on reality) and can coincide unobtrusively with other goods (equal rights, humanism, peaceful cohabitation, etc). But atheism itself doesn’t actually provide any truth or goodness on its own.
Kind of like a seatbelt. You don’t gain anything with a seatbelt, but it helps to avoid badness. It’s an indirect good. Just as seatbelts would be worthless if car-crashes didn’t happen, atheism would be meaningless without all the horrors that theism unleashes.
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May 13, 2011 at 7:39 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro ,
” So atheism arises from one good (namely caring that your beliefs are based on reality) and can coincide unobtrusively with other goods (equal rights, humanism, peaceful cohabitation, etc). ”
That is the ” theory “.
Can Atheism coincide unobtrusively with other things that are not ” goods ” but, are harmless ? I would argue that some religions are pretty harmless to Atheism, equal rights, humanism, peaceful cohabitation, and other etc. that are goods , in your judgement .
Suppose I wish to burn sock offerings to the almighty sock gnome in my basement . You wouldn’t publicly attack me ? My activities could not hurt you . Even if I had thousands of fellow sock gnome worshipers gather together in temples, that could not hurt you .
Other totally harmless religious sects that could not possibly hurt you in any way would be Moravians, Quakers, and Shakers .
Yet you continue in your unprovoked attacks on Moravians, Quakers, Shakers, and Sock Gnome worshipers . Since you did not exclude these groups in your generalized bashing of all things spiritual, you are attacking these harmless groups. You are therefore not harmless .
Which gets me to my point . In practice Atheists have historically been just as bad as the most murderous religious zealots . The Jacobins, I would argue were Atheists. Deists like Robespierre were mixed in, but in practice they were anti religion. Certainly they were as anti Christian as you . They also spouted redistribution and equality of wealth . Kind of pre Marxists .
Then we had the Bolsheviks . Certainly Atheists, certainly oppressors, certainly murderers .
I would add the Castro brothers to my list of famous Atheist murderers, but I recall a difference of opinion on this board in the past on that subject .
Lastly there is the Atheist family dynasty of Kim Il-sung, now seemingly heading into it’s third generation of oppressors .
That is the ” reality ” of Atheism when it achieves power .
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May 13, 2011 at 10:37 pm
Mystro
“Yet you continue in your unprovoked attacks on Moravians, Quakers, Shakers, and Sock Gnome worshipers .”
I called Sock Gnome worshippers silly. That is hardly an attack. Did I ever say they shouldn’t be allowed to do with their socks as they please, even if it is to burn them as sacrifices? No. Did I say that they shouldn’t be allowed to marry other SGW’s? Sure didn’t. Did I say that they are evil and worthy of hell-fire for their pagan beliefs? Not even close.
Pay very close attention, because you have repeatedly displayed a complete inability to grasp this.
Criticizing an idea is NOT the same as attacking an individual who holds that idea.
As to your list of bad atheists, I’ve mentioned before that you have yet to demonstrate any causal link from atheism to the atrocities you are so fond of touting about. You know why you haven’t? Because you can’t. Because no one can.
Why did 9/11 happen? Because people had faith that killing non-muslims would bring glory to god. Direct religion to atrocity connection.
Why do tyrants oppress people? Because they lack empathy and crave power and wealth. No connection to anything regarding the question of god(s) existence.
You may as well point out the tyrants’ hair colour. Pointing to their atheism is just that ridiculous.
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May 14, 2011 at 1:31 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro ,
” As to your list of bad atheists, I’ve mentioned before that you have yet to demonstrate any causal link from atheism to the atrocities you are so fond of touting about. ”
That same reasoning never stops you Atheists from branding all religious individuals when some clown flies a plane into a building or molests children .
The link I make is how often it happens when a Atheistic group achieves substantial power within a country .
” Criticizing an idea is NOT the same as attacking an individual who holds that idea. ”
I say it is . Why not say, ” I’m attacking your wife, not you ? ”
” Why did 9/11 happen? Because people had faith that killing non-muslims would bring glory to god. Direct religion to atrocity connection. ”
It was to begin the destruction of the United States by decapitating it’s government and destroying it’s economy . I suppose in a round about way , since they believed the US was the great Satan, you would almost have a point .
How about I try your logic ? Generally when a left wing Atheist group takes over a country they kill most of the religious leaders and destroy the places of worship. This eliminates a source of potential competitive power to the Atheists . The only source of morality and education becomes the Atheist government . Direct Atheism to atrocity connection .
Oh by the way, most great tyrants tend to have dark hair color . Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, Kim Il-sung, and his son Kim Jong-il .
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May 17, 2011 at 9:33 am
Mystro
Sigh.
“That same reasoning never stops you Atheists”
It isn’t the same reasoning, read previous posts where I’ve already explained why.
“Direct Atheism to atrocity connection”
No it isn’t, read previous posts where I’ve already explained why.
” most great tyrants tend to have dark hair color . Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, Kim Il-sung, and his son Kim Jong-il”
You’re actually close to getting one my points, and yet I fear you will not. Read previous posts where I’ve already explained why.
But you did say one thing that hasn’t been repeatedly debunked here at DWR and it was one of the most alarming things I’ve ever read from you. To my point that criticizing ideas is not the same as attacking individuals you wrote:
‘I say it is . Why not say, ” I’m attacking your wife, not you ? ”’
First, attacking person A is not the same as attacking the person B. Assuredly, both A and B could very much dislike either scenario, but they are not the same.
Second, and much more importantly, your analogy fails on a very basic level because you are comparing an attack on a person and an attack on a different person. That is nothing like comparing an attack on a person and the scrutinizing of an idea.
For example, suppose you had a very young child that was really keen on becoming great at math. So, after a lot of puzzling, the child comes to you with a paper and on said paper the child wrote “6 + 8 = 15” and the child is very proud to have come up with the answer without any help.
So, being a good parent, you would never attack your child, so do you refrain from criticizing the idea that “6 + 8 = 15”? No, that doesn’t sound right. Probably best to do something like draw a group of 6 circles, then a group of 8 circles, and count them up to show that 6 and 8 actually add up to 14.
The child may indeed feel unhappy for being corrected, but that doesn’t mean the actions described above constitutes an attack.
Criticizing ideas is how people develop and grow intellectually. I try to spend a great deal of time criticizing my own ideas, refining them, hopefully making them better. It’s one of the basic principles that has allowed science to do as much as it has for our benefit.
If you are against criticizing ideas, that necessarily puts you against intellectual growth. It also means you’re a hypocrite, because you criticize ideas here on DWR all the time (albeit, quite poorly- read previous posts where I’ve already explained why).
To help you out, here are some options for a response to what I’ve said.
You can:
a) SHOW that I’m wrong, by demonstrating a method of learning that does not involve the examining/scrutinizing/improving of previous ideas and that it actually works better than the scientific method for understanding things around us. There’d be a nobel prize in it for you too, I’m sure.
b) ADMIT that you are a hypocritical troglodyte that opposes intellectual growth. It would save me a bunch of effort in trying to explain things to you.
c) CONCEDE that criticizing ideas is a good thing and your recurring spiel of ‘nasty atheists are attacking people by talking about their ideas’ is the ludicrous, baseless, and reprehensible load of bs that it is.
Of course, there is a fourth option. You could bury your head in the sand, go ‘la-la-la I can’t hear you’ and then repeat your outrageously fallacious claims. I really don’t recommend this one, although it seems to be your favourite. Read previous posts where I’ve already explained why.
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May 17, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Mystro
In the first half of this video, Thunderf00t makes an excellent and eloquent case for the importance of scrutinizing ideas.
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May 17, 2011 at 4:14 pm
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
Where can I get in on this sock gnome worshiping? I may be an atheist, but I’m tired of losing my socks all the time!
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May 17, 2011 at 11:41 pm
Mystro
By expressing any interest at all, you have, by default, been promoted to the equivalent of ‘Pope’ for sock gnome worshipping. Congratulations! Feel free to adjust the title to your liking. I suggest ‘Grand Poo-bah of Stocking Salvation’. A bit extravagant, I grant you, but as top dog, you deserve it.
Kidding aside, It is a fun exercise to try and create a new potential religion and all its tenets. It is remarkable how easy it is to surpass all the self-proclaimed ‘infallible’ religions out there.
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May 18, 2011 at 5:16 am
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
Well then, as the divinely chosen Grand Pooh- Bah of Stocking Salvation, I vow to restore the dignity and the glory of the Holy Gnome Church. I can only hope that no one discovers my simony and lechery!
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May 18, 2011 at 9:48 am
Hang on – World Ending May 21st – so say the Religious « Dead Wild Roses
[…] the stupid to make money and live like a sultan for the rest of my days. (Yes I am watching the sock-gnome cult thread developing and taking careful notes, stay […]
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May 18, 2011 at 9:50 am
The Arbourist
All Hail the Grand Pooh-Bah of Stocking Salvation! May all his enemies be darned to heck!
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May 18, 2011 at 11:55 am
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
Hanes, the most high sock gnome has just conveyed upon me his Ten Commandments. I shall bestow them upon you tonight, when I have access to my holy laptop, as opposed to the infernal blackberry that I am forced to use during the day! ;)
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May 18, 2011 at 3:33 pm
Mystro
Verily I say unto thee, let your recitation of these commandments be delivered with vigour and jubilation! Lo! But caution, lest Calvin, the fallen gnome of Klein (may he be forever known as a heel), deceive you unto relaying false witness.
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May 18, 2011 at 4:32 pm
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
The Ten Commandments as presented to me, the Divine Grand Poo-Bah of eternal stocking salvation, by Hanes, Thy Highest Lord Sock Gnome!
1) Thou shalt not wear socks with sandals.
2) Thou shalt not wear garish toe socks.
3) Thou shalt not wear mismatching socks.
4) Honor thy holy day of mending.
5) Thou shalt not wear tube socks with dress pants.
6) Thou shalt not wash dark socks with white.
7) Thou shalt not worship false sock puppets.
8) Honor thy father and mother: For they shall gift thee with 6 packs of tube socks.
9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s socks
10) Thou shalt not commit hosiery.
Those of you who wouldst willingly break any of these commandments without repentance shall be doomed to eternal darnation!
So it shall be written, so it shall be done!
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May 18, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro,
It’s amazing, I thought no one could wear me out with minutia, but you have actually bored me into quitting . Although when you said ” ADMIT that you are a hypocritical troglodyte that opposes intellectual growth. It would save me a bunch of effort in trying to explain things to you ” , them is usually fightin words . I take great pride in my troglodyte manners, but I strive very hard to never be hypocritical .
As far as you two and your disrespect of any religion , I fall back on the phrase , God is not mocked .
I suppose there must be some good in you two sinners so I promise I will pray for your souls . Someone has to . No go ahead , have a good laugh , my ego can take it .
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May 18, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
As the Divine Grand Poo-Bah of Eternal Stocking Salvation, I find Mr Scott guilty of committing hosiery, and proclaim him a heretic. He is permanently excommunicated from the Holy Church of Gnome.
So it shall be written, so it shall be done!
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May 18, 2011 at 9:24 pm
The Arbourist
Our first Heretic, a banner day indeed! :)
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May 18, 2011 at 10:19 pm
Mystro
To AS
“It’s amazing, I thought no one could wear me out with minutia, but you have actually bored me into quitting ”
I see that once again, you went for that forth option I listed. So sad.
” them is usually fightin words”
Those were options, and I think mutually exclusive ones at that. I shouldn’t be surprised you didn’t read carefully, but it is rude of you to ignore what I write after I go through all the trouble of carefully responding to all that you say.
“God is not mocked”
Quite right. It would be silly for us to mock things that don’t exist. We mock religion.
“I suppose there must be some good in you two sinners so I promise I will pray for your souls . Someone has to .”
I am sinless. No need to waste your time praying for me.
To BTTFH AKA Divine Grand Poo-Bah of Eternal Stocking Salvation
Great work, sir. I’m sure Hanes is pleased with how well you have done. May your feet coverings be paired and your lint traps be clean!
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May 19, 2011 at 5:32 am
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
Indeed, the feet coverings are paired and the lint traps are clean. I spend may hours a week worshiping in the laundry room of piety and providence.
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May 19, 2011 at 8:39 am
Beneath The Tin Foil Hat
Alan,
Judge not,lest you be judged. If you’re so knowledgeable about faith,You would know that you have no business calling anyone a sinner. That’s your invisible sky wizard’s job. Unless you have god’s cell number, stfu about who’s a sinner and who’s not. As for mocking god? Mock,mock,mock,mock,mock,mock, mockity freaking mock!
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May 19, 2011 at 10:31 am
intransigentia
Is Mr. Scott seriously going away? Oh frabjous day, calloo, callay!
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June 5, 2011 at 7:51 pm
D.I.D.
“…The problem with morality is that, by nature, it is inherently complex and comes with many layers of conflicting values and ideas that must be judiciously weighed before coming to an (often unsatisfactory) answer. Regressives have little time for complexity and depth of thought and often adumbrate easy moral solutions based on unrealistic binary models…”
That is probably the best argument in favour of rational thought and against fanaticism, whether it be political or religious, I have ever seen.
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June 5, 2011 at 10:08 pm
The Arbourist
That is probably the best argument in favour of rational thought and against fanaticism, whether it be political or religious, I have ever seen.
Well, thank you for the compliment. :)
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