*(editor’s note – As this post has been rebutted, I’ve given it a second time over to improve readability and fix some of the more egregious construction errors)
I’m kinda glad people can share their opinions on WordPress (mostly), but there seems to be a category of dudes that take it upon themselves to write important(?) words about radical feminism. While discussing the great satan and how it is destroying men, society, and the universe (clutches pearls), it becomes markedly clear that the author(s) in question know sweet fuck all about how society works, and if possible, even less about feminism.
I’m sure you’ve heard it before: radical feminism is targeting men, harming them, and making them victims of sexism against males.”
Sometimes the punter in question gets close to the truth, but almost always quickly veers away; asymptotically doomed to forever miss the point. As is the case here.
Radical feminists correctly deduce that the class of men oppress the class of women in society. That we should change the structure of society to get rid of the oppression is the crucial factoid that dudes just seem to gloss over.
Instead we get the pablum presented in the quote. I don’t pretend to understand what this first sentence is saying. I’m gonna apply my bafflegab to English translator and roughly interpret the point our beleaguered dude is trying to make. Best guess folks: The argument being made is that radical feminists are calling men out for their bullshit behaviour and this is making them have a sad.
Sorry my dude, but enough men are still on board the good ship patriarchy and thus continue to treat women as second class citizens.
“While all of this is true, there are victims here of third-wave feminism that we don’t talk about as much (and no, I’m not actually addressing the unborn babes that are slaughtered by the thousands). “
Good, because it sounds like, unsurprisingly, you are against female bodily autonomy. (*shocked*)
“That’s right. For as much as the Left would like to make it seem like they’re truly concerned with the plight of females, they’ve proven time and time again that the last thing they really care about is raising up the females around them. You may have heard about “sisterhood”, “female power”, kumbaya around the campfire, etc. But while strong female relationships do thrive in different situations, this idea of “empowered females banding together” isn’t quite as accurate as we’d all like to believe. Don’t believe me?”
No, you’ve demonstrated an astonishing allergy to even the most basic features of society and how it works. The best part is, you’re going to start making assumptions and arguments based on nothing but your sheer ignorance and the power of your uninformed opinion. Buckle in tight, my lovelies, because the nothing good can come when your argumentative building blocks are made of high-octane stupid.
“Take for example, the statistics. Men are often cited as being the ultra-violent, over-aggressive beings that are causing workplace abuse and bullying. “
Men perpetrate the most violence in the world. The current shite state of things is a direct result of the ‘male way’ of handling problems.
“While men contribute, it’s actually women that tend to target women in work situations.”
Based on what? You are making an assertion of fact right here. Where is it coming from other than the dark recesses of your arse?
“While men contribute, it’s actually women that tend to target women in work situations. This is not due to men’s “crippling” of women and turning them against each other, but instead due to the fact that women are naturally very competitive and intellectually aggressive [see HERE and HERE for examples and studies proving this point].”
I do love it when people cite research. It is also good to read the sources and see what they actually say, rather than just what you think they say.
Quote from the first source: “I recently conducted a survey focused on women in the workplace, and found that approximately 70% had been the victim of either workplace bullying or covert undermining by a female boss”
Methodology? Sample Size? Where the results were published? Nothing like that to be found? Okay then, first source is trash, disregard.
Quote from the second source: “More recently, research has shown that women may not support each other’s progress specifically in situations where they are outnumbered by men. Ryan et al. (2012) found evidence that female supervisors were less supportive of female employees in male-dominated organizations.”
Less supportive, in situations where males outnumber females does not support what you’re saying – “but instead due to the fact that women are naturally very competitive and intellectually aggressive “- your claim that women are ‘naturally competitive’ is not backed up by even a charitable reading of your source, and claims that people are “naturally x” is usually fallacious (see genetic fallacy).
“Keep in mind that women were designed to compete for the best resources. For as long as time has begun, women have competed for the best man, the best home, and in a modern day when marriage is no longer the only way to financial and physical security, the best jobs.”
Tests for genetic fitness of partners is indeed a part of our system of drives. But it is not a single totalizing endeavour. We are a complex social species and it is wrong to attribute motivations of people based on one factor, especially without consider the current context (the workplace).
“As such, everything that leads to a better quality of life and more security is something that women will bully each other over. This is why (biologically, at least) girls tend to dress nicer not just to impress men, but also to outdo their former females, all of whom have the same motivation of getting a mate.”
*sigh* Biologically speaking you’re full of feces. We have the social construction of society that great affects how we act and are how we are expected to act in society. The wearing of clothes (nice or not) is a social construction and has little to do with biological precursors.
“Radical feminism, however, rejects the idea that women have this natural competition and instead embraces a group mentality where all women band together to fight abusive male. “
Please quote the Radical Feminist source that says this? The only branch of radical feminism that embraces this idea exists only in your head. For bonus points, historically speaking, our societies have been based around the principle of cooperation. Only when hierarchical structures have been introduced (see patriarchy) do we see competition in society become a lauded virtue.
Women need solidarity to fight the patriarchal structures in society because going against societal norms individually is not effective and is quite dangerous to undertake without support. Do not mistake action against patriarchy as action against particular men – it is the system that empowers them that is the problem.
“So why do feminists want to ignore the damage perpetrated by females and focus primarily on that spread by males?”
Because male violence is endemic within the structure of society? Women literally mold their lives around reducing the threat of rape and male violence. Violent males and their aspirations exist in every facet of society and if you happen to be in the class that receives most of unwarranted aggression, then it becomes a problem.
“For one thing, it means females can continue inflicting this damage on females while crying “victim”.”
Oh, so if women would just shut up and let men do their thing, the problem of violent male behaviour would fix itself (?).
No.
It doesn’t work that way, the problems of society need to be identified, deconstructed, and replaced with ones that acknowledge the base humanity of all members of society.
“And it means they can continue to shift the blame of their bullying onto men so they can talk about what they really consider to be the “problem”. “
Men need no help in the bullying department, no blame shift is required.
“ Girls who are read this book will be taught that they are discriminated in every circumstance without reason”
Truth hurts, no? Living in a patriarchy is not a fun time if you happen to be female.
“They will be taught that all-guy’s club are sexist and that any activity in which they are not the first chosen is due merely to their gender.”
Being educated, or allowed to vote, or have a credit card/bank account in their name was once only in the domain of males. So one must look with a certain amount of skepticism to ‘all-guys’ clubs or organizations.”
“And for girls who don’t submit to this narrative? They are taught that they are being sexist or even worse, that they have no minds of their own and that they are being bowled over by men.”
Plugging your ears and denying the reality of women’s station in society doesn’t fix the problem. Feminists realize though that each woman must strike her own patriarchal bargain within society and do what she must to survive.
“Their problem isn’t that they dare to think differently; their problem is the evil patriarchy who has stuffed their oppressive, sexist ideas down their throats. “
The patriarchal norms of society are passed on through both the father and the mother. The mother does what she can to help her daughter survive in a society that is fundamentally arrayed against her and her personhood.
“Girls in the past were faced by ideas that kept them in their station in life and the same is true today. Not much has changed unfortunately.”
Glad to see that you (unknowingly) acknowledge patriarchy is a thing and its bad for women.
“Girls are still being told how and what to think. The only difference? Those distributing this wisdom are not their fathers, their brothers, their husbands, or their friends. Instead it is their sisters, who insist that the girl who refuses to believe is the girl who refuses to rise above her circumstances. “
Because men know the solutions to female problems. Right… Right? Most men cannot even fathom (see this post) what being female in society is like, and what women do to survive within it. It is only from a position of assured ignorance does drivel like this get written.
“It is the poor female who must choose between obeying the louder members of her own gender or allowing herself to be crushed beneath the “patriarchal” heel. “
You have a very strange notion of what a patriarchal bargain is. The choice women face is how to deal with the fact that they are treated as the submissive class in society and their base humanity is always in question. Sure you can go along with the ‘proper’ feminine prescriptions of society but how much of yourself and your ambitions are you willing to sacrifice to guarantee(?) your position/safety in society?
Feminists ask the question, why should there have to be a sacrifice in the first place?
Oh hey we have a rebuttal ping back. I went a typed a response over there, but nothing’s come through yet. Being somewhat experienced in dealing with people who are perhaps not the most intellectually honest spoons in the drawer, I’ve replicated my response in the comments below. Good fun. :)
7 comments
February 14, 2019 at 10:31 am
lovetruthcourage
Great post! I can’t believe anyone would put dreck out there like the essay that you easily rebutted. The author is ignorant.
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February 14, 2019 at 11:00 am
The Arbourist
@LTC
Thanks. 😃 One hopes that enlightenment will come a knocking soon…
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March 14, 2019 at 4:53 pm
Identity Politics and Its Lack of Intellectual Credentials – Dear the People
[…] recent post The War on Women, was responded to by fellow WordPress user The Arbourist. Their post Clueless Commentary I Find on WordPress is public and I would encourage you to go read it if you would like to understand my rebuttal in […]
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March 15, 2019 at 2:22 pm
The Arbourist
Hey, gonna post my reply here as well in case reality is a problem over at Dear the People.
@D.T.P
Hey, thanks for the response. Rebutting can be fun, let’s do it!
Cool. In the post in question, you sound like every other generic male who has ‘important wisdom’ to share with those darn irrational females. Whether by stylistic choice or the sententious content, that is exactly how you came across.
Radical feminism threatens male privilege and status in our society. It (Radical Feminism) seeks to dismantle the patriarchal structures and norms of society the oppress women. So, if losing their ‘leg-up’ in society is toxic toward men, so be it.
See also the burgeoning problem of reverse-racism… No, it doesn’t work that way. People in the subordinate classes may indeed demonstrate discrimination, or discriminatory practices toward the dominant classes, but do not have the backing of society and its set of normative values to classify their discrimination as reverse-sexism, reverse-racism et al.
In the Sciences -” […] brought to light the research from Yale that had scientists presented with application materials from a student applying for a lab manager position and who intended to go on to graduate school. Half the scientists were given the application with a male name attached, and half were given the exact same application with a female name attached. Results found that the “female” applicants were rated significantly lower than the “males” in competence, hireability, and whether the scientist would be willing to mentor the student.” – Article:Scientific American. Citation.
From Birth, but specifically in this study kindergarten age – “[…] Bias against women and girls in contexts where brilliance is prized emerges early and is a likely obstacle to their success.” Article:Pressherald. Citation.
We can go on, if you’d like. The fact we live in a systemic patriarchy is evident, whether you choose to acknowledge facts and evidence is solely your decision. If you’re at all curious a good study to peruse can be found on the University of Chicago Legal forum: Patriarchy and Inequality: Toward a Substantive Feminism. It contains suggestions and valid criticisms of some of the branches of feminism.
Better to insult people to than ignore readily available facts.
Umm. Dude (dude-(ess)? The concept of bodily autonomy deals with the concept of actions and freedoms regarding the individuals. When you involve another autonomous human being, it is a question of rights.
Horsepucky.
Evince your claim. And anyways, the status of being alive or not is irrelevant. If you believe that females are autonomous human beings then indeed they have the right to decide what goes on in their bodies, including being pregnant or not.
If you are into the fetus-fetish, please by all means; but do not ascribe your patriarchal ‘morality’ on other women. Thanks.
Your cited research was from dubious sources and even with a charitable reading only weakly supported you assertion. Clearly, if your readers critically evaluate the source material they will come to the same conclusion – your sources are shit.
You come so close to making a good point. Half marks for sure.
Your buddy jesus has killed quadruple if not quintuple that number. As this is a corollary, let’s not get into your hatred of women’s rights here. But see this paper on the murderous aspect that makes jesus the #1 abortion king.
Ahhahahaha. Erm.. pardon me. Your pronouncements have more weight than mine because of a magic book written by scared, ignorant shepherds? Riiiiiight.
Can we please keep the risible religious nonsense out of fact based discussions? The two do not mix.
Awesome. Just a start for you, from Robert Jensen: “Complex systems produce complicated results, and still there are identifiable patterns: Patriarchy is a system that delivers material benefits to men—unequally depending on men’s other attributes (such as race, class, sexual orientation, nationality, immigration status) and on men’s willingness to adapt to patriarchal values—but patriarchy constrains all women. The physical, psychological, and spiritual suffering endured by women varies widely, again depending on other attributes and sometimes just on the luck of the draw, but no woman escapes some level of that suffering. And at the core of that system is men’s control of women’s sexuality and reproduction […]” –
Another great source to learn about patriarchy is by bell hooks called Understanding Patriarchy: ” Patriarchy is a political-social system that insists that males are inherently dominating, superior to everything and everyone deemed weak, especially females, and endowed with the right to dominate and rule over the weak and to maintain that dominance through various forms of psychological terrorism and violence.”
Evidence for Patriarchy, provided.
Hey good for you. You are in the slimmest of minorities because most women, world wide do.
Bullshit. You’re wrong.
“Many unique aspects of human sociality such as language, theory of mind and cultural norms have been proposed to provide the framework for human cooperative behaviour1,2,3,4, which stands alone in its scale and ubiquity between unrelated individuals5. Cooperation has been fundamental to the demographic success of our species – resource exchange, collective action and specialisation have increased our efficiency at surmounting a vast array of environmental pressures6,7.” – Nature: Competition for Cooperation: Variability, benefits and heritability of reations wealth in hunter-gatherers. Sci. Rep.6, 29120; doi:10.1038/srep29120 (2016).
Most of human history has been spent in a cooperative societal structure: – “Hunting and gathering was humanity’s first and most successful adaptation, occupying at least 90 percent of human history.”
Perhaps not using a country under US embargo and economic sanctions to illustrate ‘socialism evil’ would be good. It would seem that you are trying desperately to sound like you know things, but then don’t do the work to prove it.
Please illustrate how your arguments work by charitably choosing the best cases of socialism in action. In other words, please use Norway, Finland and Sweden to demonstrate your points as opposed to countries in which the US is actively trying to overthrow the government (economic sanctions, political meddling et cetera).
People in Norway, Sweden, Finland, and even to a lesser extent Canada and the UK, all demonstrate a social democratic model of governance that foregrounds cooperation and the belief that society should work for the benefit of all the individuals with in it.
No contradictions present in my arguments. What is evident is your bias toward the current neo-liberal craze that dominates the US body politic. It’s a bad look, by the way.
Males account for the majority of violence in society. Fact. Please remove your head from your ass.
STATISTICAL SOURCES
1.Males are most often both the victims and the perpetrators in 90% of homicides.Source:U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics,Homicide Trends in the U.S.: Gender.http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm
2.Over 85% of the people who commit murder are men, and the majority of women who commit murder usually do so as a defense against men who have been battering them for years. Ninety percent of the womenin jail for murder are incarcerated for killing male batterers.Source:Bass, A. (Feb 24, 1992).“Women far less likely to kill than men; no one sure why.”The Boston Globe: p. 27.
3.Women commit approximately 15% of all homicides.Source:Stark, E. (1990).Rethinking homicide: Violence, race, and the politics of gender. International Journal of Health and Services. 20 (1): 18.
4.More than 90 women were murdered every week in 1991; 9 out of 10 were murdered by men.Source: Violence Against Women: A Majority Staff Report. Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate,102nd Congress. October 1992, p. 2.
5.Ninety percent of people who commit violent physical assault are men. Males perpetrate 95% of all seriousdomestic violence.Source:U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics Online.http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/
6.The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that 95% of reported assaults on spouses or ex-spouses are committed by men against women.Source:Douglas, H. (1991).Assessing violent couples. Families in Society, 72 (9): 525-535.
7.It is estimated that 1 in 4 men will use violence against his partner in his lifetime.Source:Paymar, M. (2000).Violent no more: Helping men end domestic abuse. Alameda, CA: Hunter House Publications.
8.Close to all – 99.8% – of the people in prison convicted of rape are men.Source:National Crime Statistics.
9.Some 81% of men who beat their wives watched their fathers beat their mothers or were abused themselves.Source:U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.
10.Studies have found that men are responsible for 80% to 95% of child sexual abuse cases whether the childis male or female.Source:Thoringer, D.; Krivackska, J.; Laye-McDonough, M.; Jarrison, L.; Vincent, O.; & Hedlund, A. (1988).Prevention of child sexual abuse: An analysis of issues, educational programs and research findings.SchoolPsychology Review. 17(4): 614-636.
11.The majority of victims of men’s violence are other men (76% M, 24% F).Source:U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.12.Out of 10,000 cases of road rage, over 95% of them were committed by men.Source:AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety, “Aggressive Driving.”
The focus of Radical Feminism is to name the problem, and that problem is male violence and male socialization.
Glad you don’t see it. Must be nice. However, for the rest of us, who have not internalized patriarchal norms, it is quite evident, and most definitely exists. You talk of skepticism, and rational inquiry yet you don’t put their basic strictures into practice. I have a positive claim – patriarchy exists and is fundamental to how society operates. Your argument is anecdotal – I don’t see it or experience it therefore it doesn’t exist… Well bully for you. Please cite the evidence that contradicts my claim.
Till the 1970’s it was legal for a husband to rape his wife.
“In the United States, prior to the mid-1970s marital rape was exempted from ordinary rape laws. The exemption is also found in the 1962 Model Penal Code, which stated that “A male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if: (…)”.[5]” – Wikipedia.
Yeah. A little problematic don’t you think. And yes, I’m using the wikipedia, because basic grasp of the groundwork knowledge necessary in this argument seems to be beyond you.
Irrelevant. Clutch your pearls on your own time. The fact of the matter is that rate of which males perpetuate violence against females and other males in society. It is the root of the problem, and what Radical Feminism aspires to change in society.
My article is a response to the intellectual skullduggery you displayed, and continue to display. You repeat patriarchal talking points, make baseless arguments, and don’t back up your points with evidence.
You missed the sentence, “deals in verifiable fact”. A slight oversight, but given the depth of argumentative rigour demonstrated, quite unsurprising.
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March 15, 2019 at 4:14 pm
Carmen
Jesus. A woman. Even worse. :(
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March 15, 2019 at 5:05 pm
The Arbourist
I know, right? It’s like a primer on how to be a handmaiden extraordinaire.
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March 24, 2019 at 12:56 pm
Educating the Actively Ignorant – “Dear The People” Not Reading For Comprehension | Dead Wild Roses
[…] recent post The War on Women, was responded to by fellow WordPress user The Arbourist. Their post Clueless Commentary I Find on WordPress is public and I would encourage you to go read it if you would like to understand my rebuttal in […]
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