I am going to use the discussion points found on RichardDawkins.net as the basis of this feature.
Calilasseia is the author of the post and deserves many rich accolades for assembling so much useful information in one spot. This constitutes an open thread of sorts, please leave your opinions and observations in the comment section.
[16] The “evolution is a belief” nonsense.
At this point, it should be sufficient for me to point to [2], [4] and [6] above, and tell those entertaining this fatuous idea to go and learn something. However, I suspect that the attention span of the typical creationist is such that a reminder is needed at this point. And that reminder is now forthcoming.
When scientists provide hard evidence supporting their postulates, in the form of direct empirical tests of the validity of those postulates, “belief” is superfluous to requirements and irrelevant. This has happened time and time and time again in evolutionary biology, and once more, if you can’t be bothered to read the actual scientific papers in question in order to learn this, then you are in no position to critique a theory that has been subject to more thorough critical scrutiny than you can even imagine is possible. Oh, and as an indication of the size of the task ahead of you, if you think you’re hard enough to dismiss the scientific evidence on a case by case basis, you have over a million scientific papers to peruse that have been published in the past 150 years. Be advised that tossing one paper into the bin isn’t enough, you have to toss ALL of them into the bin. Good luck on that one.
Just in case this hasn’t registered here, the critical thinkers regard belief itself as intellectually invalid. If you have to ask why, then again, you are in need of an education, and badly.
As a corollary of the above, I now turn my attention to:
[17] “You only believe in evolution because you hate god”.
Anyone posting this particular piece of drivel, and make no mistake, it IS drivel, is quite frankly beneath deserving of a point of view. Erectors of this sub-amoeboid, cretinous, verminous, pestilential and thoroughly decerebrate cortical faeces are not considered to be worth the small amount of effort required to treat them with utter disdain, let alone the greater effort required to subject them to actual contempt.
Aside from the fact that I have dealt with the “belief” bullshit in [16] above, and aside from the fact that I’ve dealt with the complete failure of supernaturalists to provide any evidence for their pet magic man back in [1] above (yes, you need a proper attention span if you’re going to engage in debate here), and as a corollary of this latter point, we’d like to know how one can “hate” an entity whose very existence has only ever been supported by vacuous apologetics instead of genuine evidence, this particular favourite meme of creationists is singularly retarded because it misses the whole point by several thousand light years. Allow me to remind you all once again, first that the critical thinkers do not regard “belief” as intellectually valid full stop, and that the critical thinkers accept the validity of evolution because REALITY supports it. THAT is what counts here, because it is what counts in professional scientific circles. You can whinge, moan, bitch and bleat all you like with respect to this moronic canard, but be advised that people who paid attention in classes at school regard this canard as one of the most utterly spastic pieces of apologetics in existence, and given the fulminating level of stupidity that has emanated from apologetics over the years, this makes the above canard rather special.
While we’re at it, let’s deal with one polemical argument that was presented to me recently, and one which is again entirely specious. Namely, the argument that evolutionary theory was erected “to kill off the idea of a creator”. Er, no it wasn’t. Anyone who follows the actual history of the development of evolutionary theory will know that it was erected to provide an explanation for observed biodiversity, and to provide an explanation for observed dynamic change in populations of living organisms. I know that creationists love to erect specious doctrine-centred arguments such as this (which dovetails with the doctrine-centred thinking and specious apologetics covered in [15] above), but such specious doctrine-centred arguments are, not to put too fine a point on it, blatant lies. Just because creationists can’t accept that someone might alight upon a view of the world that doesn’t rely upon doctrinal presuppositions doesn’t mean that such a view cannot exist. But then, the entire creationist argument consists of asserting that the world conforms to their ignorant wishful thinking, so it’s no surprise that they adopt the same view with respect to the development of scientific theories. So, if you erect any of the “you hate god” or other specious polemical pseudo-arguments here, be prepared to endure much mockery for doing so, especially if you do so after being directed here and told to learn from this.





16 comments
September 5, 2010 at 6:29 pm
artisticphysics
Checkout my 2 latest posts….
Scare Tactics: Breaking Through the “HYPE”
and
American History X
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September 5, 2010 at 6:30 pm
artisticphysics
And FYI……..You’ll never progress as long as you have HATE in your heart
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September 6, 2010 at 8:04 am
The Arbourist
And you will never progress as long as you hold delusion in your head. Thus endeth the free internet advice? :)
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September 6, 2010 at 12:46 pm
artisticphysics
lol Dawg you’re a hypocrite. If you don’t believe in God then why do you hate Him so much? By logic, how can someone hate what does not exist? The secret is out! You can fool everybody else except me.
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September 6, 2010 at 2:15 pm
The Arbourist
lol Dawg you’re a hypocrite.
To be a hypocrite, one must state or do something and then perform an action that negates or is strongly contrarian to the original belief. So, in the case of saying I disbelieve in god’s existence, I would then have to state that I also believe that god exists. And if that was the case, indeed I would be a hypocrite.
However, since I posited no such set of contrary positions one would reasonable be able to conclude I am not a hypocrite, at least when it comes to the dis/belief in god and other assorted mythology. Let me assure you my position is consistent when it comes to sky fairies and their associated magic books.
If you don’t believe in God then why do you hate Him so much?
What you have done is made a strawman, or weaker (mis)representation of my position and then used that weaker assumption to draw conclusions about my position. So rather than arguing fallaciously, one should try to address the views I actually hold and not the ones you assume I hold.
By logic, how can someone hate what does not exist?
I would be careful in using the term by logic, as I followed a few of the threads you have participated in and it clearly not an area of proficiency. Gods and religions are man-made constructs, primitive attempts made by people with limited knowledge of the world and how it works. Religion now in the 21st century is not necessary as we can discover answers for ourselves without some magical figure watching over us and scolding or judging as if we were recalcitrant children.
Religion has opposed progress and modernity every step of the way. Religion is an enemy of reason and rationality and seeks to blind people to the discovered truths of the world we exist in today. Concomitantly religion retards social progress and egalitarian society as it promotes sectarian divisions amongst people and irrational ways of interacting with social problems.
So, do I hate god? No more than I hate the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy or santa claus or any other being that is most likely firmly in the realm of mythology. What I take issue with is mendacious nature organized religion and the actions perpetrated on religionss behalf that mostly amounts to delusional, wishful thinking. Therefore, I oppose religion, but no sky-fairy in particular makes my ‘hate’ list, as endorsing any flavour of delusion is antithetical to a critical, rational view of the world.
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September 6, 2010 at 2:27 pm
artisticphysics
Still not convinced. lol. You believe in God, get over it. Its not a “bad” thing to believe in God. Embrace it!
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September 6, 2010 at 2:56 pm
The Arbourist
You believe in God, get over it.
I’m not sure what you are basing this on, but arguing a point with a distinct lack of evidence seems to be not much of a hurdle for you. :)
Its not a “bad” thing to believe in God.
Not in all cases, but in general, embracing delusion and mythology to understand life is not a beneficial decision.
Embrace it!
I embrace rational thinking and the natural beauty and wonder of existence, without the need of any invisible sky-daddy or related minions. Religion simply is not necessary.
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September 6, 2010 at 3:19 pm
artisticphysics
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence :p
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September 6, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist,
I’ve been monitoring your discussion. You have very self sufficient arguments. You must believe in fate, chance, or luck. You must be grateful to something that your life turned out as well as it did. Some outside force gave you the gift of reason, even if you use it to find reasons why that force cannot exist.
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September 6, 2010 at 7:38 pm
artisticphysics
Thats something he has a hard time admitting. What I always notice about Atheists is that they are too egotistical/prideful to fathom that there is a greater power than themselves. In turn it blocks them from experiencing any type of spirituality and hate that which they can not experience.
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September 6, 2010 at 9:23 pm
The Arbourist
Some outside force gave you the gift of reason
When the evidence shows that this ‘outside force’ is real, I’ll be the first one singing Hallelujah. However, the evidence we have points to a much more mundane origin of intellect and higher thinking.
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September 6, 2010 at 10:20 pm
artisticphysics
And I will say again, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!
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September 6, 2010 at 11:10 pm
The Arbourist
And I will say again, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!
Arguing fallaciously a second time does not make your first statement any more valid. :)
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September 7, 2010 at 12:17 am
artisticphysics
Smh. Wow. lol Can’t believe you used Wikipedia as a site for reference. Only a person who never made it past the first semester of college would make that mistake.
Once again, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE! What is it you don’t comprehend about that?
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September 7, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Mystro
“again, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!”
Your lack of rationality is truly astounding. First, you seem to be of the opinion that if you put a statement all in caps, it somehow adds validity to your statement, very much akin to people who think if they raise their voices, suddenly their argument gets better. In both cases, it just makes you annoying to your audience and it is usually an indicator that, instead of reason, all you have is volume and big block letters to back your claim.
Second, no one can disprove your personal god. But the thing is, we don’t have to. Just as we can’t disprove your god, no one can disprove Zeus, Thor, Leprechauns, Pixies, Flying Spaghetti Monsters, or Invisible Pink Giraffes that, after eating some questionable cottage cheese, suffered from some extreme flatulence which we now refer to as the big bang.
But I imagine, you don’t believe in most of these things nor do you hate them, just to tie in another of your ludicrous claims. If anyone were to say to you that any of these things were real, it would not be up to you to prove that they don’t exist, rather, they would bear the onus of proof to show that they do exist.
If anyone were to believe the Invisible Pink Giraffe Flatulence theory for the creation of universe, and you said that you didn’t buy it, would they be right to say you were being “too egotistical/prideful” to accept their story? Don’t think so. And here’s the thing about logic. Consistency is golden. So if it don’t work for the IPGF theory, it doesn’t work for yours either. If you think this is an unfair comparison, you would have to come up with why your ‘god’ theory is different. Note that difference in details (ie yours is in human form and named jebus, mine is in giraffe form and named bubba) have no bearing at all on the legitimacy of our claims. In fact the only way legitimacy can be obtained is through evidence.
Oh, and any holy book you come up with doesn’t count either, because I happen to have an IPGF holy book that says your holy book is full of crap. Indeed, every single “holy” book I can think of says that they are right and every other holy book is wrong, so no matter which holy book you like, most holy books say yours is wrong. It’s a baseless appeal to authority which is fallacious.
As to your criticism over the wikipedia reference, it was a horrible display of irrational behaviour. It was non-consequential because this is blog, not a graduate thesis or post secondary paper of any kind. If it were, there are many many legitimate sources that have near identical definitions of the argument from ignorance that could be used instead, but instead of making you go to a library, our generous host here gave you a reference that you could easily look up on the net.
Instead of accepting this gift, you just looked at the source, said ‘bah’, and ignored it. This is a fallacy because you are not addressing the argument, but rather the source of the argument. It’s a type of ad hominem. (I decided to explain that one to you, because providing you with links for you to look things up yourself seems ineffective).
Now I can only come up with two motives for using such an ad hominem; intellectual dishonesty (nice way of saying you’re a liar) or intellectual scarcity (nice way of saying you’re stupid) and I cannot figure out which one applies to you. But to be fair, there might be a third motive that I have not considered, so I’ll put it to you.
When you completely ignored the content of Arbourist’s reply (that being the link describing very well what the argument from ignorance fallacy is and how it answers your mantra that you keep putting in caps) and simply discarded it based on its source, were you being dishonest, were you being stupid, or do you have some other way to justify your last post?
To Mr.Scott I simply point out that you cannot just claim that one must believe in fate, chance, or luck as some extrinsic entity with some will of its own, but you must say why. I believe in chance in so far it is a way to describe events with more than one outcome (i.e. there is a 1 in 2 chance that a coin toss will result in heads). Ascribing sentience to these phenomena is not necessary or rational.
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September 7, 2010 at 5:35 pm
The Arbourist
Can’t believe you used Wikipedia as a site for reference.
Especially when it correct. Wow, crazy I know.
Only a person who never made it past the first semester of college would make that mistake.
It seems, like most people that cannot argue, you substitute insults for arguments. It is becoming tiresome. Please stick to arguments.
Once again, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE! What is it you don’t comprehend about that?
Usually there is a point even when a fallacious argument is made. In light of being charitable, I had hoped you had more to your position that was not completely wrong or intellectually dishonest. The evidence is mounting that you don’t really have a case, other than ‘my magic book says so’ and that is not a reasonable amount of evidence to base a rational argument on.
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