This is a compete repost of what guest blogger Starling on Shapely Prose, says about our rape culture and how it works for the people who have no choice but to live within its confines. This is a “S2” moment, as in Sit the frack down and Shut the frack up.
This is how it works out there. Starling writes with brilliant clarity on a topic that troubles me greatly, she lays down exactly what being female is in our culture, exposing the double standards, patriarchy, and rape culture that are inherent in our society.
You do not want to be part of the problem, so don’t be that guy or girl who glosses over someones “personal problems” or laughs at a rape joke or endorses the other 101 quadrillion bits of misogyny that passes as humour these days. Problems are not fixed by ignoring them. Not taking personal responsibility for making the society you live in safer is a shitty thing to do. So don’t be that person.
Read on.
Phaedra Starling is the pen name of a romance novelist and licensed private investigator living in small New York City apartment with two large dogs. She practices Brazilian jiu-jitsu and makes world-class apricot muffins.
Gentlemen. Thank you for reading.
Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. You are kind to children and animals. You respect the elderly. You donate to charity. You tell jokes without laughing at your own punchlines. You respect women. You like women. In fact, you would really like to have a mutually respectful and loving sexual relationship with a woman. Unfortunately, you don’t yet know that woman—she isn’t working with you, nor have you been introduced through mutual friends or drawn to the same activities. So you must look further afield to encounter her.
So far, so good. Miss LonelyHearts, your humble instructor, approves. Human connection, love, romance: there is nothing wrong with these yearnings.
Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.
“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”
Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is. When I go on a date, I always leave the man’s full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesn’t hear from me by three or so, she’ll call the police. My activities after dark are curtailed. Unless I am in a densely-occupied, well-lit space, I won’t go out alone. Even then, I prefer to have a friend or two, or my dogs, with me. Do you follow rules like these?
So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?
Do you think I’m overreacting? One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. I bet you don’t think you know any rapists, but consider the sheer number of rapes that must occur. These rapes are not all committed by Phillip Garrido, Brian David Mitchell, or other members of the Brotherhood of Scary Hair and Homemade Religion. While you may assume that none of the men you know are rapists, I can assure you that at least one is. Consider: if every rapist commits an average of ten rapes (a horrifying number, isn’t it?) then the concentration of rapists in the population is still a little over one in sixty. That means four in my graduating class in high school. One among my coworkers. One in the subway car at rush hour. Eleven who work out at my gym. How do I know that you, the nice guy who wants nothing more than companionship and True Love, are not this rapist?
I don’t.
When you approach me in public, you are Schrödinger’s Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I won’t know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I can’t see inside your head, and I don’t know your intentions. If you expect me to trust you—to accept you at face value as a nice sort of guy—you are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.
Fortunately, you’re a good guy. We’ve already established that. Now that you’re aware that there’s a problem, you are going to go out of your way to fix it, and to make the women with whom you interact feel as safe as possible.
To begin with, you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance. When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm. That possibility is never 0%. For some women, particularly women who have been victims of violent assaults, any level of risk is unacceptable. Those women do not want to be approached, no matter how nice you are or how much you’d like to date them. Okay? That’s their right. Don’t get pissy about it. Women are under no obligation to hear the sales pitch before deciding they are not in the market to buy.
The second important point: you must be aware of what signals you are sending by your appearance and the environment. We are going to be paying close attention to your appearance and behavior and matching those signs to our idea of a threat.
This means that some men should never approach strange women in public. Specifically, if you have truly unusual standards of personal cleanliness, if you are the prophet of your own religion, or if you have tattoos of gang symbols or Technicolor cockroaches all over your face and neck, you are just never going to get a good response approaching a woman cold. That doesn’t mean you’re doomed to a life of solitude, but I suggest you start with internet dating, where you can put your unusual traits out there and find a woman who will appreciate them.
Are you wearing a tee-shirt making a rape joke? NOT A GOOD CHOICE—not in general, and definitely not when approaching a strange woman.
Pay attention to the environment. Look around. Are you in a dark alley? Then probably you ought not approach a woman and try to strike up a conversation. The same applies if you are alone with a woman in most public places. If the public place is a closed area (a subway car, an elevator, a bus), even a crowded one, you may not realize that the woman’s ability to flee in case of threat is limited. Ask yourself, “If I were dangerous, would this woman be safe in this space with me?” If the answer is no, then it isn’t appropriate to approach her.
On the other hand, if you are both at church accompanied by your mothers, who are lifelong best friends, the woman is as close as it comes to safe. That is to say, still not 100% safe. But the odds are pretty good.
The third point: Women are communicating all the time. Learn to understand and respect women’s communication to you.
You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because she’s already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, y’know, don’t disturb her. Really. Even to say that you like her hair, shoes, or book. A compliment is not always a reason for women to smile and say thank you. You are a threat, remember? You are Schrödinger’s Rapist. Don’t assume that whatever you have to say will win her over with charm or flattery. Believe what she’s signaling, and back off.
If you speak, and she responds in a monosyllabic way without looking at you, she’s saying, “I don’t want to be rude, but please leave me alone.” You don’t know why. It could be “Please leave me alone because I am trying to memorize Beowulf.” It could be “Please leave me alone because you are a scary, scary man with breath like a water buffalo.” It could be “Please leave me alone because I am planning my assassination of a major geopolitical figure and I will have to kill you if you are able to recognize me and blow my cover.”
On the other hand, if she is turned towards you, making eye contact, and she responds in a friendly and talkative manner when you speak to her, you are getting a green light. You can continue the conversation until you start getting signals to back off.
The fourth point: If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.
There’s a man with whom I went out on a single date—afternoon coffee, for one hour by the clock—on July 25th. In the two days after the date, he sent me about fifteen e-mails, scolding me for non-responsiveness. I e-mailed him back, saying, “Look, this is a disproportionate response to a single date. You are making me uncomfortable. Do not contact me again.” It is now October 7th. Does he still e-mail?
Yeah. He does. About every two weeks.
This man scores higher on the threat level scale than Man with the Cockroach Tattoos. (Who, after all, is guilty of nothing more than terrifying bad taste.) You see, Mr. E-mail has made it clear that he ignores what I say when he wants something from me. Now, I don’t know if he is an actual rapist, and I sincerely hope he’s not. But he is certainly Schrödinger’s Rapist, and this particular Schrödinger’s Rapist has a probability ratio greater than one in sixty. Because a man who ignores a woman’s NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well.
So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, you’re sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone. If you pursue a conversation when she’s tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone. And each of those messages indicates that you believe your desires are a legitimate reason to override her rights.
For women, who are watching you very closely to determine how much of a threat you are, this is an important piece of data.
The fifth and last point: Don’t rape. Nor should you commit these similar but less severe offenses: don’t assault. Don’t grope. Don’t constrain. Don’t brandish. Don’t expose yourself. Don’t threaten with physical violence. Don’t threaten with sexual violence.
Shouldn’t this go without saying? Of course it should. Sadly, that’s not the world I live in. You may be beginning to realize that it’s not the world you live in, either.
Miss LonelyHearts wishes you happiness and success in your search for romantic companionship.”
bleatmop
Mystro
Dead Wild Roses 
31 comments
September 21, 2011 at 8:00 am
renetascian
I love how you seem to find such gems, and it is totally right. Even though I don’t think about my “security” routines all that much, I do those sorts of assessments all the time. She is totally right though, absolutely and totally right. I have had only a few instances in which I got unwanted advances, but the few times it happen were terrifying. The best offense against an unwanted approach is a good defense. Not going places you don’t know well, not going out at night alone, staying in well lit, occupied spaces and avoiding the men who are already trashed and looking to get some by 9pm. With my limited means, riding the bus can be really scary if there is some drunk idiot on there. It does happen. Many of my responses are almost subconscious, but I am always alert and panning the group in my proximity for threats, even in broad daylight sometimes if I am in a confined space, like a bus. I had never considered the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” thing as a name for it, but it is quite true. I do exactly what she does. I do get hit on when I am out, though usually depending on where I am, the time, and the situation I send clear “don’t bother me” messages, most often when it does happen it’s more uncomfortable to me than pleasant because men don’t realize the signals they are sending. If more men realized the kind of threatening environment we live it, they could certainly go a long way to making our days a lot easier on us that is for sure. I am usually a pretty good judge of character, but I don’t risk it with people I don’t know. Thanks for the post, I think it’s a good read for men and women.
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September 21, 2011 at 6:57 pm
Vern R. Kaine
“When you approach me in public, you are Schrödinger’s Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I won’t know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I can’t see inside your head, and I don’t know your intentions. If you expect me to trust you—to accept you at face value as a nice sort of guy—you are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.”
Could someone please answer for me what this woman considers to be an “approach”? In the meantime, framing every guy as a rapist right off the bat is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
Safety precautions are one thing, a guy or girl who can’t trust their own intuition is another. A guy can think that every woman in a supermarket is someone looking for a relationship, or that every single mom with a kid wants a daddy, or that every girl that glances at his car is a gold-digger, and can be 100% right in his “world”.
If these people can’t trust their own intuition then the problem is largely theirs rather than ours or the people approaching them, and when they wear this cloak of insecurity and ignorance that “every ___ is a potential ____” to the extreme that this woman seems to do, they invariably set up almost every negative situation they pretend they’re trying to avoid. Example: everyone knows you don’t give some random guy or girl your personal email address. If they go weird, email goes down, end of story, yet a woman apparently this cautious does otherwise? Not buying it.
Hold an insecure, irrational, and deep-seated belief and one will invariably validate it to some degree. I realize that there are sometimes harsh circumstances (such as rape) that create these beliefs, but overcaution as a result is never healthy in the long-term, same as it’s never in a car after one’s had an accident.
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September 21, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Alan Scott
Rape culture, Patriarchy. What planet do you people live on ? Time to move, or buy a gun or move to where you can legally carry a gun .
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September 21, 2011 at 10:18 pm
renetascian
Simply because you are blind the nature of the world as women experience it doesn’t make it any less real for us. You aren’t a woman, so you don’t know. The statistics she mentioned are real, and there is a perceptual erosion of consent for women in our society. I have experienced it more than once when a man feels his advances are warranted in spite of my direct disinterest, and explicit desire to end the exchange. And she is not saying that every man is a rapist, she is saying that rape is incredibly prevalent thus situational awareness is warranted. 1 in 6 is a high statistic. We aren’t talking about a perpetual state of terror, or panic attacks, just a healthy cautiousness in environments that warrant it. Thus the mentality contributing to this effect is “Rape Culture”.
Certain places and situations elicit a more “Schrodinger’s Rapist” alertness. A dimly lit bar, a dark alley, a stuffy bus, or potentially anywhere at night. I.E. Places that in the event that someone may want to assault us we are at a greater risk. It is a very real threat, a threat you don’t have to deal with as men. It’s not like we have panic attacks every-time a man approaches us, just when they give the wrong vibe, do something we flag as warning behavior (staring, lewd gestures, cornering, blocking movement, loitering around us, unprovoked advances, or other body language/posturing that sends us the message that you don’t respect us, our space, bodies, or privacy), or under the wrong conditions (the dark alley). As she said, you have to “accept that I set my own risk tolerance”.
Men are largely unaware of the womanly macrocosm and this is a problem. It is not an entitlement to men that I submit myself to “insert action here” by every Tom, Dick and Harry I meet because I am a woman. This is the problem, that in our society men feel they are entitled to something they really aren’t simply because we are women. It’s a ideology that arose from patriarchal hierarchy that contributes to the objectification, and sexualization of women. If you approached me in the supermarket, I’d feel safe enough to be friendly. But if you approached me in the parking lot outside of the supermarket, at night I’m going to crack a can of green beans on your skull, it’s that simple. Remember this simple thing with women… Don’t act like a predator stalking it’s pray, and we won’t treat you like a predator. Being ignorant of the problem doesn’t make you gallant, or righteous, it just makes you a cavalier asshole.
It’s important that men understand that no means no, and that having breasts and a pretty face doesn’t mean we want you all over us. Remember that without knowing you personally, we can’t make inferences about your character, and it is in our best interest to treat any perceptually predatory behavior as a valid threat to our safety. If a woman you don’t know wants to talk to you, she will… IF she doesn’t, leave her alone. Is that such a hard thing to ask? Being a woman is a different experience than being a man, accept this, learn to understand this, but don’t scoff at it or your acting as a facilitator for the mentality makes us feel the need to defend ourselves. Learn to read our body language, because that is usually a pretty good sign as to whether or not your approaches are wanted or threatening. Learn to know when approach is acceptable, or not acceptable. Read her blog again and carefully if you don’t see this the first time.
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September 21, 2011 at 11:30 pm
The Arbourist
Run along now Alan, the adults have to have a serious talk about grown up issues.
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September 22, 2011 at 12:04 am
The Arbourist
Could someone please answer for me what this woman considers to be an “approach”? In the meantime, framing every guy as a rapist right off the bat is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
Safety precautions are one thing, a guy or girl who can’t trust their own intuition is another. A guy can think that every woman in a supermarket is someone looking for a relationship, or that every single mom with a kid wants a daddy, or that every girl that glances at his car is a gold-digger, and can be 100% right in his “world”.
Since this isn’t advanced blaming 501, let me lay a few things out for you. Schrödinger’s Rapist idea is based on the very real thought experiment by Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger. It is meant to call into question some of the large questions raised by the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics.
So the idea of the Schrödinger’s Rapist comes from the idea that two superimposed states could exist at anytime for any one man. Rapist and non-rapist. Of course, the vast majority of men out there are not rapists…but how do you know. Collapsing the wave function in the case of the cat, that is looking inside the box “chooses” one of the two realities that are possible. Unfortunately, women nothing as facile as a mere crate to open, you find out if you have a rapist on your hands when he’s y’know raping you. Exercising caution as the article suggests and making the assumption until proven otherwise is a logical, coherent strategy to follow.
the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
Well that is nice, but in this case your opinion doesn’t count for much as you are not a woman and do not face Rape Culture and the predators that infest it every day. Consider it a privilege not to even having to think about things as Schrödinger’s Rapist. Dismissing it because it is not relevant to you does not make the situation women face any less dangerous, but perhaps a touch more dangerous as not acknowledging the situations women face contributes to the propagation of the cultural norms that allow rape culture to exist.
Hold an insecure, irrational, and deep-seated belief and one will invariably validate it to some degree.
Your rabid hatred of unions comes to mind. But, cheap shots aside, what the above statement sounds like is that women are “asking for it” by taking reasonable precautions. And that’s a pretty shitty position to hold, so I’m gonna wait on some clarification from you before preceding further with this particular avenue.
Also, if we do decide to go further in this discussion I’ll most likely be referring to the information found here, I suggest you peruse it as well.
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September 22, 2011 at 12:07 am
The Arbourist
Men are largely unaware of the womanly macrocosm and this is a problem. It is not an entitlement to men that I submit myself to “insert action here” by every Tom, Dick and Harry I meet because I am a woman. This is the problem, that in our society men feel they are entitled to something they really aren’t simply because we are women. It’s a ideology that arose from patriarchal hierarchy that contributes to the objectification, and sexualization of women. If you approached me in the supermarket, I’d feel safe enough to be friendly. But if you approached me in the parking lot outside of the supermarket, at night I’m going to crack a can of green beans on your skull, it’s that simple. Remember this simple thing with women… Don’t act like a predator stalking it’s pray, and we won’t treat you like a predator. Being ignorant of the problem doesn’t make you gallant, or righteous, it just makes you a cavalier asshole.
Well said and QFT.
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September 22, 2011 at 10:43 am
The Intransigent One
You really don’t get it do you Vern. Let me spell it out for you: yes, there are the stereotypical rapists who break into your house or jump out of the bushes. These are an infinitesimally tiny minority. Rapists don’t have big scarlet R’s tattooed on their foreheads, or women would be able to consistently avoid them and not have to worry about the rest of men. The way most rapists are able to get close enough to women to be able to rape us, is they don’t look like rapists until they actually start, you know, raping. There was a woman in my city a few years ago, whose torso was found in a suitcase in a park. She was seen th previous evening leaving a bar with a man – the one eventually convicted of her murder. Would she have left the bar with him if she knew what was going to happen?
The fact of the matter is, this is the worst-case scenario women are thinking of when they have to deal with an unwanted interaction with a man. Extremely rare, yes, but pretty fucking serious. And even the not-worst case scenarios can really suck. You can get followed around by someone screaming verbal abuse and threats, in seconds, just by not wanting to chat, or chatting happily about the weather but shutting the conversation down when he starts hitting on you, or refusiung to provide your phone number. If you give your phone number, it may take months to get them to stop calling. If they follow you home or live in your apartment building or take the same bus as you every morning, every time you leave your home it can feel like a game of cat and mouse.
All of these things have happened to me and to other women. In the moment, once our boundaries have been disrespected, all we know is we’re dealing with a man who has disrespected our boundaries. He might just be socially clueless, or he could be dangerous. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask well-meaning men to be aware that women are evaluating these threats all the time, and to recommend that if men want to have positive interactions with women, not to do things that trip our danger alarm, even if that means sometimes you don’t get what you want out of an interaction with a woman.
Further, your comment that paranoia fuels confirmation, is utterly ignorant in this case. Let’s say I already have a bad feeling about some guy because he’s been sneaking up behind me and grinding on me on the dance floor, and I’ve been giving him the stink-eye and walking away, and every time I try to go dance there he is on my ass? Is it the fact that I have a bad feeling about him that makes him call me a fucking cunt and try to follow me to my car when I leave, or is it the fact that he’s an asshole? (And yes, this is something that has happened to me. And has happened to lots of other women too.)
Where do I get to draw the line about who I want to interact with and how? Just how super-duper nice and sweet do I have to be to show I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt and assuage his hurt feelings, or else it’s my bitchy attitude that provoked his ugly response?
Conversely, if I’m super-duper nice and sweet about saying no, how does he know I really meant it, and then he gets his hopes up and his ugly reaction is my fault for being such a bitch and leading him on?
Maybe it was my responsibility to stay home watching reruns of Jeopardy so I didn’t cause all this trouble in the first place?
Or we could work towards a culture where men understand that when women don’t want to interact with them, that’s just life and you can’t always get what you want.
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September 22, 2011 at 11:16 am
renetascian
Ditto, Intransigent One, ditto. I have had men call me a whore because they gave me the creep factor and I didn’t want to talk to them. I have been sort of molested by drunk men on the bus and in bars before before, and no one said shit. So, I don’t get a lot of dates because I come of with a “Don’t Fuck With Me” vibe, but I stay safe and that is more important to me than how much lovin’ I get. I am also 5’8″ so I can pull it off a little more effectively, and I am a farm girl, and military retiree, so I exude the aura that I can back up the vibe. But I am not super strong, and I am certainly not as strong as the typical male will be, but certainly not defenseless. But I am blessed in that regards, while many other women are not. Many of my friends over the years have been raped by men, in fact all but one I am close to mostly by men who believe drunk women have given consent by being easy prey. The only exception is a lesbian friend of mine because she avoids men altogether. Good to see you’re still around Intransigent, hadn’t seen you comment in a while :3
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September 22, 2011 at 6:50 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist,
” Run along now Alan, the adults have to have a serious talk about grown up issues. ”
I eagerly await their arrival.
So tell me, are not children far more vulnerable to rape than women are ? It seems every day we read in the media of some child being abused sexually by a man, although it seems women are more and more the accused abusers.
I remember a few decades back , how the child molester hysteria had a whole bunch of day care workers and even school bus drivers falsely accused. A lot of folks had their lives destroyed . Think Salem Witch Trials .
With your ” Rape Culture ” assertion, and your endless ” Schrödinger’s Rapist ” pseudo intellectual rant you seem to seek that same type of hysteria .
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September 22, 2011 at 8:01 pm
The Arbourist
With your ” Rape Culture ” assertion, and your endless ” Schrödinger’s Rapist ” pseudo intellectual rant you seem to seek that same type of hysteria .
Congratulations on using polysyllabic words, but I’m not going to spoon feed you feminism 101. You can do that yourself.
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September 23, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist,
So I went to the link and believe it or not I found things to agree with. I was looking for a mention of Roman Polanski , but did not see it if it was there .
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September 23, 2011 at 8:31 pm
Vern R. Kaine
“Well that is nice, but in this case your opinion doesn’t count for much as you are not a woman and do not face Rape Culture and the predators that infest it every day.”
Wow, considering that we’re 50% of this equation and the post appears to be asking for more understanding from men, that’s an interesting viewpoint to have.
“Your rabid hatred of unions comes to mind.”
Only someone hand-picking portions of what I say about unions would classify it as “rabid hatred”.
“what the above statement sounds like is that women are “asking for it” by taking reasonable precautions.”
Come on, Arb, you know that’s b.s.. That’s not what I said here or in other posts I’ve made.
My challenge here is solely the starting point, i.e. the core belief, that every guy is basically a “rapist” and how that affects one’s discourse. That alone defeats what seems to be the end goal that you want here – dialogue and understanding.
If you want to initiate open dialogue I’d suggest labeling guys out there with a different word because that one is nothing but deliberately inciting. Here’s a “thought experiment” – let’s all tell our significant other (in M-F relationships) that he’s a potential rapist every day for the next 365 days. and let’s come back in a year and see how all our relationships are doing. Likewise, let him pick any derogatory name to throw back at you daily at the same time. How would you guess that ends up? My guess – not good.
Regardless, my issue isn’t with what you want to achieve. Every guy in here wants the same thing. My issue is with how, with such a negative core belief system – how you’re ever going to achieve it – i.e. where women are supposed to think that every guy but the ones who agree with them all are pieces of garbage and subclass human beings.
How quick are you to point out that since I’m male, my opinion – unless it fully agrees with yours – simply “doesn’t matter much.”? Incorrect, perhaps, but irrelevant?
if I’ve missed the point and the dialogue here is about the struggle women have to get to the point where they feel that they can truly trust men and it was a woman-only dialogue, I’m happy to step out of it, but if the goal is actual change, respectfully I think the dialogue starts on the wrong foot.
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September 24, 2011 at 1:05 am
Vern R. Kaine
@Intrasingent One:
“You really don’t get it, do you Vern?…The fact of the matter is, this is the worst-case scenario women are thinking of when they have to deal with an unwanted interaction with a man.”
Ya, I get it – thanks, and I actually agree with everything you said above. Men are more affected by rape than you might care to acknowledge.
That aside, however, let me ask this a different way: Those of you with male partners, are you still believing that they’re “potential rapists” now, or thinking that “worst possible scenario” years into a healthy relationship? When does that paranoia get dismissed, or does it ever? From Starling’s post, I saw no starting point or end point which to me is what made it irrational and ridiculous.
Second was the label. Dismiss it as semantics or whatever, but the automatic conclusion and label of “rapist” on every single guy a girl meets to me seems enormously counterproductive to what appears to be the intent of the dialogue.
“Further, your comment that paranoia fuels confirmation, is utterly ignorant in this case.”
Assuming every guy’s a rapist, and having that remain the dominant filter indefinitely is utterly ignorance on its own by definition. A guy drunken-dry-humping your leg in a bar is pretty obvious. A guy saying, “Hi” may be as obvious depending on a woman’s intuition. But here’s something that may not be so obvious that Starling’s post doesn’t seem to consider: perhaps the guy in this situation has been raped himself, and is more a victim than the girl is. But who gives a shit – let’s just call the guy a potential rapist anyways. That’s going to help the healing, that’s going to move the dialogue forward and create understanding and respect? I disagree.
“Where do I get to draw the line about who I want to interact with and how? Just how super-duper nice and sweet do I have to be to show I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt and assuage his hurt feelings, or else it’s my bitchy attitude that provoked his ugly response?”
“Conversely, if I’m super-duper nice and sweet about saying no, how does he know I really meant it, and then he gets his hopes up and his ugly reaction is my fault for being such a bitch and leading him on?”
If we had the definitive answer to that we’d be rich.
If one believes evolutionary psychology then guys are getting tested by women all the time. Most guys are just clueless as to what’s actually a test and what isn’t before they can even begin to have a clue as to how to handle it. Blame the patriarchy and WMP and rape culture and a whole bunch of other things for part of that and evolution for the rest.
Although I can’t say I’ve always known them, to me and the guys I know there are a dozen clues a woman provides if she’s interested, and one easy one she provides when she’s not, called “No”. I think most guys here would agree that there’s hardly anything more annoying with a sister, friend, co-worker, etc. having to deal with a guy who doesn’t “get it”. Bars are an obvious magnet for these type of guys, but everywhere else, it’s terrible that it still happens.
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September 24, 2011 at 1:28 am
Vern R. Kaine
“Schrodinger’s Rapist” didn’t create rape – I get it. And although not perfect at reading the clues, I think I’ve done pretty well with the approach thing.
Every woman I’ve known that’s had the string of losers or bad experiences has had the belief that ALL men are losers yet those I know who are in great relationships don’t think that way. Do they have fear on a bus, at a bar, in a dimly lit parking lot, etc. absolutely, and that sucks, but I don’t think the solution, though, is to try and get male understanding and participation by calling that man a rapist right off the start, or adopting the global belief that men are all substandard beings.
A lot of it is just absolutely hating the word, and again I think it’s not only wrong but counterproductive to apply it to men who absolutely don’t deserve it. What woman here appreciates being called something they hate? Moreso, how open are they then afterwards to reading or understand something afterwards by a person who sees them in that context? That’s all I’m saying.
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September 24, 2011 at 8:23 am
renetascian
There is several fundamental pieces of information you are missing here, so lets take a tour through my head, shall we. I don’t believe everyone around me is a rapist, though I like the analogy because it is an accurate representation of the fear we feel. I honestly am more concerned with murder than rape, but that it just me. However, there is an elevated risk if someone is willing to rape they are willing to murder. You have to remember what rape is, an act of power and control. Additionally, testosterone is the primary hormone driving that behavior. Now link patriarchy the predominant power structure of the world to rape and you’ll have a clue here. Most men who are raped are raped by other men, not women.
Now, I am a fairly care free person, but just like other women I have a built in threat radar to which I set the sensitivity. I am aware of crime in a way most aren’t having been in the military. I remain carefree with my radar in passive mode, until a flag pops. It’s ultimately really an instinct that is slightly more refined populated by parameters governed by my awareness. Because I am a woman, I am aware of my limitations, thus the sensitivity of my radar is adjusted accordingly to compensate for that. I am strong but I am no athlete and have many physical disadvantages. My radar allows me to assess threats and take evasive action at the most suitable point in time. The threats I am calibrated to are based on my experiences and what I know about statistics.
As such men are usually the ones tripping that radar, because of the elevated risk they pose. I have had women “trip” my radar too. Another thing you are missing is the good ol’ 80/20 rule, which is supported pretty closely by actual statistics. 20% of men are committing 80% of the rapes, so I am calibrating my radar to look for behaviors calibrated for that 20%, but this does not preclude a “non-rapist” from tripping the radar, nor a rapist from not tripping it. It’s the best coverage approach, just enough sensitivity to keep you out of danger, but not so much that you have panic attacks 24/7. However, if you’d been raped your sensitivity is going to be a lot higher. As a man you don’t relate to this because you don’t have to assume this posturing.
Secondly, culturally we are still a patriarchal society because of the primary Abrahamic tradition of the US. In fact Abrahamic Religion dominates the world. Rape culture exists because of the “self-righteously imbued” religious mentality of control over women both sexually and physically. And no we usually don’t suspect our male partners of being rapists (usually unless we have experienced it), but the percent is never 0% as long as this societal ideology is allowed to persist. The religiously sponsored patriarchal birth right of men (primarily of white men in America) is the main contributor to the erosion of rights for women, including consent. So long as men think they have God-given or otherwise dominion over women, then subjugation, slavery, abuse, murder and rape culture will continue to exist.
It’s the men who support it and the women who willingly and unwillingly facilitate it that are to blame. This is the core of my feminist philosophy point and simple.
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September 24, 2011 at 9:55 am
The Arbourist
Wow, considering that we’re 50% of this equation and the post appears to be asking for more understanding from men, that’s an interesting viewpoint to have.
Let us frame that in context of what I was responding to.
VRK: […] the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Arb: Well that is nice, but in this case your opinion doesn’t count for much as you are not a woman…
Arguments from incredulity do not count for much from either a man or woman. That was the context my statement with regards to what you said in the initial post. More on the being a woman thing in a bit.
Arb: “Your rabid hatred of unions comes to mind.” VRK: Only someone hand-picking portions of what I say about unions would classify it as “rabid hatred”.
That shot came with a :). I’ll add another :) as it was intended to tweak as opposed to offend your sensibilities. My apologies.
Arb: “what the above statement sounds like is that women are “asking for it” by taking reasonable precautions.”
VRK:Come on, Arb, you know that’s b.s.. That’s not what I said here or in other posts I’ve made.
Which is why I asked for clarification, because I know you don’t hold that position yet it could be interpreted that you held support for it. So we’re good here.
My challenge here is solely the starting point, i.e. the core belief, that every guy is basically a “rapist” and how that affects one’s discourse.
The problem is that our versions of the starting point are different, because that idea of the post is that not every guy is a rapist. Unfortunately, because rapists do not readily self identify, it would be in the best interests of a woman to assume that whomever happens to be hitting on her/demanding her attention is a rapist until that possibility can be ruled out.
let’s all tell our significant other (in M-F relationships) that he’s a potential rapist every day for the next 365 days. and let’s come back in a year and see how all our relationships are doing.
Again, this point argues against the construction you have made, not what the original article is about. When we are talking about Shrodingers rapist, we are talking about men who are an unknown quantity. Being in a committed serious relationship it would be apparent rather quickly, as he would respect your consent or ignored it and the 24/365 relationship would be considered abusive.
How quick are you to point out that since I’m male, my opinion – unless it fully agrees with yours – simply “doesn’t matter much.”? Incorrect, perhaps, but irrelevant?
I’m male too Vern :) The twinges you feel of things being slightly unfair is the idea that our opinion does matter less on certain issues. We are used to being listened to, our thoughts valued and taken seriously by default just because we are members of the privileged dominant class. The default position which we are used to is challenged and questioned by feminist values and teaching and should be disquieting to certain extent.
Because I am not a woman, I can only imagine what it is like to be one, but fundamentally it is not the same as being one. I can empathize with their problems, fight for their causes, and ally myself to promoting the agenda (Women are human beings and deserve to be treated as such), but I cannot speak with as much authenticity as a female could because the struggle she faces is not my own, concomitantly, my opinion is worth less than hers when talking about these issues.
I’m not happy about not having an equal say, but then again, I have equal or more than equal say on the rest of discourse in society, given the privilege I have in western society.
I’m happy to step out of it, but if the goal is actual change, respectfully I think the dialogue starts on the wrong foot.
It is important, oh so important just to listen to what women have to say. Certainly arguments must be challenged and debate must occur, but you need to find out if you’re simply rehashing the dominant views objections or actually raising valid points that need to be addressed.
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December 28, 2011 at 7:21 pm
Neil
Holy fuck you people are out to get men. I suppose men are good as long as they are remodeling your bathroom or indulging your rape fantasies (providing that they are 20 years younger than you).
get some grounding, sexist bitches.
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December 28, 2011 at 7:31 pm
Reneta Scian
Go find a nice little hole to shove your head, because we lack the patience to articulate the level of stupid you possess.
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December 29, 2011 at 12:19 am
The Arbourist
Holy fuck you people are out to get men.
Oh indeed we are, to encourage them to act and treat others like human beings. The horror.
remodeling your bathroom or indulging your rape fantasies (providing that they are 20 years younger than you). get some grounding, sexist bitches.
And we require the grounding? Muffin, are you feeling discriminated against? We do have fainting couches available for the religiously deluded, but in a pinch they can work for dudes like yourself.
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January 6, 2012 at 6:18 pm
bleatmop
Wow Arb, your post seem to have attracted a gaggle of troglodytes; or is that a clowder? I always get these terms confused. I wonder who linked to you to get so many different trolls all in one day.
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January 6, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Reneta Scian
Rape and assault are very real things women need to be aware of, and protect themselves from. This isn’t paranoia it is reality… I am surprised so many hateful people came out of the wood work all at once. People who can’t see that women in public spaces are treated with a sense of ownership by some men as if we are entitled to “give them” what they want are misinformed. It is quite clear, above all else to me that sexism is alive and well, did you see the guy saying that this is why women shouldn’t vote?
And mind you I can relate to the idea that women commit crimes even rape and murder, but the reality is that the entitlement created by the patriarchy as led to men being the primary perpetrators of such crimes because of the effect of said privilege. This is statistically and scientifically sound. Entitlement leads to the belief by men, that women are there for them. The problem is that rape is a systemic in nature, and it’s not getting better in fact it’s either staying the same or getting worse. Women are not entitled to give anything to a man, period. Men aren’t entitled to have sex with their wives using coercion, or force. Just because you are a man doesn’t make it any sort of “god given right” to “fuck” when and how you want it.
We are women, and no one owns us. Regardless of background, beliefs, status, genetics or otherwise, women are not the property of men. Sex drive is a property of hormones, hormones men possess in greater quantity giving them both the strength to commit offenses, and the sex drive to facilitate them. You know what the most effect measure against a repeat rapist is? Chemical Castration by which their testosterone is scaled back which effectively controls the rapists behavior. But the key thing to remember is no means no, an no consent is as good as no. End the entitlement, and you’ll end the problem with rape frequency and the reason why women fear it so much, and exist in a state of vigilance to what is reality, based on facts not the baseless whims of the clueless.
Paranoia is the unrealistic fear or anxiety of a threat that is to the point of being delusional or irrational. The threat of rape, under the conditions which rapes usually occur is a quite plausible and rational possibility, as it happens quite frequently. Therefore the assertion is that to be safe you need to recognize the behavior of a rapist. Unfortunately, men strongly influenced by said privilege exhibit more of those said characteristics, like the inability to respect women, their personal space, or their expressed (verbal) wishes. If you approach a woman and she give clear indication she does not want your approach, disrespecting that makes you Schrodinger’s Rapist. All men aren’t rapists, but almost all rapist are men. Delusional or Overly Anxious isn’t met by the reality of such therefore it is not paranoia to believe (for a woman) that she could be the target of a rapist.
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January 7, 2012 at 1:06 am
The Arbourist
Dunno, but its always nice to hear from the MRA crowd of butthurt men. Nothing updating the spam filter doesn’t fix. :>
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January 7, 2012 at 8:15 am
The Arbourist
I am surprised so many hateful people came out of the wood work all at once.
Sadly, it is fairly common occurrence on feminist blogs and other female friendly forums. The protectors of the patriarchal status quo really get their knickers in a twist when you challenge them on their corrosive beliefs.
It is quite clear, above all else to me that sexism is alive and well, did you see the guy saying that this is why women shouldn’t vote?
Of course, the radical notion that women are people is very upsetting to the MRA set, and they do their best to trumpet their ideas and values which at the same time is very funny/sad as the notions they parrot happen also to be the dominant cultural paradigms in our society which need no amplification.
You know what the most effect measure against a repeat rapist is? Chemical Castration
I would put forward the most effective measure against a serial rapist is incarceration. Furthermore, public knowledge and repeated messages of awareness and contempt for such atrocious behaviour is a strong deterrent. Informing and helping other people not be rape-enablers is one of the small goals I work towards here on DWR.
exist in a state of vigilance to what is reality, based on facts not the baseless whims of the clueless.
It is always fun to deal with people blinded by their privilege. It is very hard to get them to see that the “normal” way of acting and behaving in society needs some serious fine tuning.
All men aren’t rapists, but almost all rapist are men.
It is really amazing to see the lack of reading comprehension when it comes to this post by the MRA crowd. One can only continue to walk the bastions and hope that some of the traffic to posts like this enlighten or cause people to question some of their views.
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January 7, 2012 at 8:35 am
Reneta Scian
I agree with you about the repeat rapists, that is a good point. I was mainly thinking along the lines of what causes the capacity to rape, which is chemically fuel, and socially predisposed in nature. It’s something I find is also a big denial of the religious, who tend to deny science outright. They argue it’s some “metaphysical, original sin” that makes men take that road, rather than looking at culture, psychology and biology which have demonstrably better success with finding the cause of said behaviors and executing effect prevention methods. I agree with you fully, having stuff out there, even though the rough traffic comes is helpful to awareness none the less. Thank you again for putting up with it to give information that needs to be said.
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January 7, 2012 at 8:56 am
The Arbourist
I was mainly thinking along the lines of what causes the capacity to rape, which is chemically fuel, and socially predisposed in nature.
You made a good point. The problem is that sometimes that point sometimes plays into the hands of the biological determinist faction of the MRA. Their argument goes something like this – Oh well men are the strong hunters and have strong primal drives that helped keep them and their community alive… so why are you dour feminists all uptight about men asserting their natural tendencies?
Rape is inherently a violent act, it is an abuse of power and control. Testosterone does not make men stop thinking. There is still a conscious choice made to violate another person’s bodily integrity. There is no defense to be had in, “oh…I was awash in testosterone and therefore needed to rape person X to satisfy my needs, carnal or otherwise”.
It is a BS argument from the MRA side because it denies male agency (and thus responsibility) in the process of committing rape. We as supposedly civilized human beings, should learn to control our urges and make the choice not to follow ones that hurt other people.
Thank you again for putting up with it to give information that needs to be said.
Creating safe spaces on the net and calling out the BS is just my teaspoon contribution to the cause. Others do it much better than I, but thanks for the compliment. :)
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January 30, 2012 at 1:00 am
alita
my goodness this smacks of privlidge. Vern seriously, stop with the pearl clutching, its just making you look more like an arsehole.
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January 30, 2012 at 1:10 am
alita
uh, yeah neil, really proving your point there, why on earth should women feel threatened when even on the internet, raising their concerns, they get treated to violent and dehumanising language?. heres the deal, you can whine and moan all you want about us “sexist bitches” being “out to get men” when rape and sexual assult have been purged from society. until then your comments will be treated as butthurt.
also @ The Arbourist-right on loving your comments they are keeping me sane what with ignorant replies from neanderthal’s like this one!
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January 30, 2012 at 4:47 am
Reneta Scian
It’s indeed interesting that this topic continues to get hits even now, but I can understand why. People with privilege, heterosexual males mostly, have trouble admitting they feel such a “privilege”. I can see where it could sting a little to be told something that is probably invisible to you is hurting other people. People don’t like to be shamed, or made to feel guilty, especially when they are oblivious to the abuses their privilege causes. It’s no different than White Americans being told their privilege hurts people of color, or Rich Americans being told their reckless casino profiteering. No one likes to think their way of life, philosophy or way of thinking is harmful. Sometimes for some people their history of abusing their privilege makes the guilt far to great to face. However, truth is truth whether it be inconvenient or not.
The most pervasive and most dangerous problem of male privilege is the derision of female agency, or a woman’s right to self agency. Agency is in this sense the capacity to act in accordance with one’s own will. This puts the agency of men above that of women, and privilege hardly stops and the mundane or benign, but extents to all aspects of female agency. Rape culture is in essence a product of male privilege through such degradation of agency. It is why in most cases rape is about power not sex, love, or overpowering biological impulses. As Arb has put it using sex drive as an excuse to rape is an excuse to redirect blame and say, “I can’t help it my hormones made me do it”. However, all men have the same biological mechanisms, so why don’t all men rape? Because rape isn’t about biology it’s about power, because agency refers to one’s power to act.
Women do in fact have the right to say no to a man’s advances, and expect that choice respected. But we live in a culture were women are abused, threatened, and assaulted for attempting to insist they have the capacity to act for themselves equal to that of men, that they have the ability to make choices on their own behalf. A woman’s agency isn’t just her power to say yes, but to say no, maybe, next week, or whatever she feels suits her needs on all issues not just sex). Being oblivious to the role the privileges of males play in the oppression of women only propagates the idea that women have lesser agency. No means no, and women are not the property of men. Women are not men’s lesser, but his equal. Women have more than sufficient capacity to make decisions for themselves, and all women should stand up for the right to make them.
Understanding rape culture requires a participatory understanding of male privilege.
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January 30, 2012 at 10:29 pm
The Arbourist
We do what we can here to maintain a safe and respectful space for all people who choose to comment.
Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to comment. :)
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March 13, 2012 at 3:08 pm
deerlodgevista
Reblogged this on cottonwoodtransition and commented:
This is an amazing explanation of what goes through a woman’s mind when she is approached, even by a nice looking man who has honorable intentions. “Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is.”
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