The writers at Alter.net have been on a tear as of a late. I reproduce highlights from the article.
The Top Five
Here are five “conventional wisdom” doses of economic nonsense that we have been fed:
1. Business does everything better than government.
Corporate conservatives argue that businesses and their one-dollar-one-vote system of decision-making is better and more efficient than We, the People’s government and its one-person-one-vote system. They argue that constant competition, placing companies under constant fear of going under and people under constant fear of job-loss, focuses the mind like a pending execution. They say it leads them to do only what they should be doing and no more, in the best possible way, always looking for the best and most “efficient” ways, forcing innovation to occur.
But as we have seen, what actually happens in this kind of dehumanized “Force You” system (as in “F.U.”) is that businesses are forced to cut every corner, cheapen every product, cut out every service, lay people off, cut people’s wages while adding hours, gut benefits … and probably go under anyway because when every business does the same 99 percent of us can’t afford to buy or do things anymore.
The effect on people (human beings – remember them?) is worse. Stress-induced illness is rampant in our fear-based society. People do not get sufficient sleep, skip vacations, work long hours, spend less time with their families, spend very little time in nature, and the rest of the things that make us human.
This idea that people are best when operating under constant fear is similar to the conservative mantra that everyone should carry a gun because then you have “a polite society.” Perhaps constant fear and stress keeps people on their toes and makes them “behave” but in the long run it’s just no way to live.
Another “feature” of this top-down, one-dollar-one-vote, “market” system that the corporate conservatives advocate is that only those at the top levels of the corporate/financial ladder make the decisions for, and receive the benefits of, society. This is great if – and only if – you are in that 1 percent. But one-person-one-vote, democratic government decision-making means all of us have an equal say with equal access and equal opportunity, and society operates for the benefit of all of us.
2. Rich people are “job creators.”
This is the old “trickle-down” idea — that if you give enough money to the already-rich eventually some of that money will trickle down to the rest of us. This is also called the “getting peed on” theory of economics.
The basis of this thinking comes from the theories of Ayn Rand, who argued that society consists of “producers” and “parasites.” Rand’s fundamentally anti-democratic ideology says that democracy is a form of “collectivism” in which people who don’t want to work and produce use their numbers to steal from a gifted few who are the “producers” of goods and services. Rand’s followers claim that wealthy people are rich because they “produce.” The rest of us are “parasites” who “take money” from the productive rich, by taxing them. This revenue is “redistributed” to the parasites to pay for our “entitlements.”
They say that if wealthy people have more money they will use that money to start businesses and hire people. But anyone with a real business will tell you that people coming in the door and buying things is what creates jobs. In a real economy, people wanting to buy things – demand – is what causes businesses to form and people to be hired.
History – and a quick look around us today – shows that when all the money goes to a few at the top demand from the rest of us dries up and everything breaks down. Taxing the people at the top and reinvesting the money into the democratic society is fundamental to keeping things going.
3. Government and taxes take money out of the economy.
Yes, they actually say that government and taxes “take money out of the economy.” They argue that the money government collects is a) pocketed by politicians; or b) stuffed under a giant mattress; or c) is just wasted.
In reality the taxes that government collects are invested in the “public structures” that create the prosperity and lifestyle we enjoy – or at least did before taxes were cut. Tax revenue builds the infrastructure of transportation, courts, schools, universities, research facilities and other institutions that enable our businesses to grow and prosper and the consumer protection, safety inspection, water and sewer, health, parks and arts that help us live and enjoy our lives.
But there is a powerful reason for people to feel the government does seem to be providing value for the money it costs us: so much of the federal budget goes to military and military-related spending. Spending on wars, the “Defense” department (military), intelligence, nuclear weapons, veterans, and related budget items (including interest on money borrowed for past military spending) is a significant portion of the budget, and people instinctively feel that the country is not getting back services that match what they are putting in.
High top tax rates also reduce the incentive to be greedy and destructive, which can overcome many of us and make us do things we shouldn’t. Cutting top tax rates in the ’80s forced a change in business models away from long-term planning and building wealth by building sustainable businesses over decades. Instead, since you could take home a fortune overnight, it made more sense to go for the get-rich-quick, sell-the-farm-style schemes so prevalent today.
4. Regulations Kill Jobs
Corporate conservatives say that “government just gets in the way” and costs money, which leaves less room for hiring. This is a corollary to the “business knows best” argument and to the idea that society consists of a few “producers” who are inherently superior to the masses of people. The thinking is that We, the People don’t know what we are doing, and businesses with their top-down structure will do the right thing more efficiently.
Those engaged in a business do know the business better than outsiders. But regulations that protect the public, employees and the environment govern how the actions of businesses affect the rest of us. A business wants to make a profit, and will only care how regulations affect that goal. It makes sense for government to set up regulations because the rest of us are concerned about the larger world of the rest of us, and therefore understand more clearly how the actions of a business will affect the rest of us.
In may cases regulations keep businesses from doing things that kill jobs – and people.
5. “Protectionism” hurts the economy.
Corporate conservatives argue that “free trade” is always good under all circumstances. They say we get lower prices and our businesses are able to reach more customers. Of course trade can be a wonderful thing, increasing the standard of living on both sides of the trade border.
But the trade deals of recent decades have not been free or fair, and can’t really even be called “trade.” What has happened is countries sell to us but do not buy equally from us, causing huge trade deficits that have drained our economy and our jobs and our wages. Instead of increasing prosperity they have been used to increase exploitation of working people and the environment for the benefit of a wealthy few.
Our prosperity is the fruit of our democracy.
Conservatives say that it is good that businesses in countries like China are more competitive because they don’t have a lot of regulations to comply with. Countries where the people have little say in things don’t have to spend the money to pay minimum wages, keep the environment clean, keep workers safe and keep products up to standard and they don’t have to worry about lawsuits. They are more “efficient.” So they can charge less.
Conservatives who argue that we should have less regulation, lower wages, fewer benefits, fewer consumer, worker and environmental protections are really arguing that we should abandon democracy. By opening our borders to goods made where people do not have a say we made democracy a competitive disadvantage.




23 comments
October 18, 2011 at 10:19 am
Vern R. Kaine
1. Business does everything better than government.
These are lame leftie generalizations that not even the right believes. See any righties wanting a fully-privatized military? Fully-privatized courts? Wake up.
“… businesses are forced to cut every corner, cheapen every product, cut out every service, lay people off, cut people’s wages while adding hours, gut benefits … and probably go under anyway because when every business does the same 99 percent of us can’t afford to buy or do things anymore.”
Huh??? SOME businesses cheapen every product because their market demands cheap products. Consumers psychologically determine a price point and that’s what moves businesses to act to either lower a price, or improve the product. Why are Sony TV’s always more expensive? Why are Apple Computers more expensive than Windows-based systems? Because there’s a balance between what a product can be produced at and what price point consumers have indicated that they’re willing to pay.
First the left’s bitching that there’s no jobs, then they bitch that prices are too high, then they bitch that wages are too low. It’s like asking for fast, cheap, or good. You’ve got to pick one and go with it people. IF YOU DON’T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY, MAKE MORE.
They key benefit of capitalism is innovation which for the most part, has improved society. Anyone who sits here and says Government innovate is an absolute moron.
2. Rich people are (not) “job creators.”
Another idiot leftie sweeping generalization. First, no one on the left can actually figure out what “rich” is, because they HATE TO DO MATH and they’re too screwed up to try and figure out what “good rich” and “bad rich” is. Steve Jobs is rich, and created thousands of jobs. Warren Buffett’s investment creates jobs. The banking industry creates jobs, but they’re evil rich and job destroyers, not creators according to the left. Show me one Apple manufacturing plant in America.
Second, the left are dumb enough to think that Government is the biggest and best job creator. (Careful, lefties, if you’re going to concede that small business actually creates jobs here, by definition of your beloved government all those people in small business creating those jobs are classify as “rich” and therefore you’re supposed to hate them because they’re not doing their “fair share”.
And why does the left miss this point? All a government “job” is, is tax money that people have already paid in to the government being handed back to them so the government can go ahead and tax it again. The government lives on leftovers, therefore it creates ZERO. Only business innovates, invents, and truly grows.
3. “Government and taxes (do not) take money out of the economy.”
AlterNet is conveniently only looking at half the equation here (likely because they have no clue about business). No right-wing person I know accuses the government of hoarding money as Alternet claims and would like you to believe. The issue the right wing has with government is how they spend it.
Money is moving between government, business, and private citizens all the time. True, the government doesn’t “hoard” like private citizens or corporations do, therefore it can’t be as “greedy” in that sense and besides, it’s not in the government’s best interest to hoard. That I easily concede, but it’s not in a company’s best interest to hoard, either. Cash offers not only zero return, but less than zero depending on inflation and currency valuation. The only time where it makes sense for an individual to hoard cash is when there is market uncertainty, and who creates that market uncertainty? I know you don’t want to say it, but for the most part, government does..
Government covered billions in bank losses, and in doing so they created the condition where banks didn’t have to lend money out, even at higher risk or interests rates, to make up for their losses. They created an environment where the best rates of return in the market came more from cutting costs than lending. They basically paid the banks to be job killers and get out of lending, seek other ways to make profit, such as cranking up debit fees.
The second thing here is, yes, the government takes money out of the economy, and yes, I say the government puts money back in, but put aside the leftie generalization for a moment and take a serious look at how much of a ratio the government puts back in vs. what it takes out. Since the left doesn’t care if jobs are productive or not, let’s take out payrolls and ROI and just look at how much duplication there is between government departments. It’s to the tune of billions if not trillions, which could instead be used for social programs, infrastructure spending, SBA loans, and all those other things both the lefties and the righties love. Of course, though, Alternet doesn’t go anywhere near the topic in their posts, and I have yet to see one left-leaning site that does. At least right-leaning sites will discuss social issues, even if there remains disagreement with their conclusions.
4. Regulations kill jobs.
Again, let’s do what leftie’s never seem to do, which is get more accurate here rather than just generalize. Regulations create jobs, but how many of those jobs are overpaid, unnecessary jobs? Again, just look up “Government Waste” and “GAO report” on Google for proof. No true conservative wants zero regulation, even real Libertarians. They all understand that government’s job is to protect its citizens, including the environment. But it’s like if the left says anything towards removing useless jobs, they use that generalization thing again and seem to think that now they’re saying they’re “for job cutting”.
Regulations DO kill jobs. Here’s simple math that I’ve referenced from the Davis-Bacon Act. If I have $1,000 to do a window-caulking job on low-income housing and the regulations say I have to pay $30/hr for a job that only deserves $10, I can only hire 30 people to do that job instead of $100. 70% of the people I could have employed on that job now have to find other work.
Specifics, people, specifics. Can we not agree that (Bad) regulations kill jobs, and (good) regulations create and protect them?
5. “Protectionism ‘hurts’ the economy.”
So many things wrong with this passage that the left blindly and automatically accepts as true.
Alternet says, “Conservatives say that it is good that businesses in countries like China are more competitive because they don’t have a lot of regulations to comply with.”
Huh? That’s the stupidest comment they’ve made here yet. It’s like saying “Apples are great because oranges are fruit.”
Let me restate that for them: China’s businesses are more competitive because they don’t have a lot of regulations to comply with. China is also competitive because of currency manipulation, but heaven forbid we go there. Either way, that statement isn’t true. Domestic businesses that do not have a lot of regulations can still be uncompetitive.
Low cost is only half of it (hint, leftlies – this is what economists mean when they talk about “supply side”). The other half, is demand. China wouldn’t make a dime off America if America didn’t buy, so let’s include both of those things in Alternet’s idiotic statement to make it a little more correct:
“China’s businesses are more competitive because American culture demands the cheapest products and due to China’s currency manipulation, slave labor, and lack of environmental protections, they can meet the demand of America’s “99%” who, incidentally, prove every single day that they really don’t give a shit about China’s environmental or human rights track record – they just want cheap prices.”
Because the middle class and poor keep handing over their money for discretionary items based on their emotional rather than practical needs, so long as the rich keep supplying them the poor and middle class will keep eating it up. That’s how the wealth transferred over the last 50 years and even if that were all magically given back, it will be how the wealth gets transferred again over the next 50 years. The middle class (any present company excluded) are that stupid, and they stay stupid because they wholeheartedly buy into the crap like Alternet dishes out above which speaks only to the symptoms of our problems but not the underlying cause.
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October 18, 2011 at 7:29 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist,
You have laid out the economic and military philosophy of Western Europe and the European Union . Virtually no military .
As National Review puts it : ” a nation without a military is in a sense no longer a nation. ”
“A land of universal welfare invariably universalizes mediocrity.”
” A land of 30 year old students and 50 year old retirees has so thoroughly diverted the great stream of life that it barely comprehends what’s at stake. ”
Since you work in a safe and secure University and are sheltered from the economic turmoils of real life, what would you know about economics?
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October 18, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Conservative Economic Myths – Thanks again Alter.net « Dead Wild …
[…] posted here: Conservative Economic Myths – Thanks again Alter.net « Dead Wild … Posted in News, Uncategorized | Tags: afghanistan, christianity, education, environment, […]
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October 19, 2011 at 11:45 am
Vern R. Kaine
As much as I can rant and spew vitriol at leftist impressions of what they don’t understand, it shouldn’t take away from the bigger issue of why our dialogue in this country (USA) is at such a standstill.
I attacked this piece from the left, but I would equally attack a piece from the right that was so deliberately generalized and intent on cherry-picking half-truths to make its point. What frustrates me far more is the deadlock that is created when both sides do this at the same time.
Here’s where the right does it:
“No one in America can be turned away for treatment.” Is that true? Mostly, but here’s a very serious and significant part that’s left out: should a 60-year old man without insurance who has trouble walking, and a heart condition wait 1.5hrs outside in a lineup in 100-degree heat to get that treatment? Or 2hrs inside? Should he be chastized for not disclosing his ailments to family taking care of him for fear that a visit to the local clinic will obligate the presiding doctor to send him immediately to the hospital for ANOTHER $150,000 medical bill so that doctor doesn’t get sued?
When you generalize like Alternet has about the economy or like the right often does about health care, anything can be made to be a myth and anything can be made to be true. The right plays its own games that way, I agree, but their statements like that shouldn’t stand unchallenged nor should the ones above. They only serve to remove common ground, divide people further, and distract people from focusing on a viable and practical solution.
Plus, when I read things like what Alternet posted I go out and club baby seals. How can Alternet be so inconsiderate?
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October 19, 2011 at 12:30 pm
renetascian
You guys seem to miss what it is the responsibility of all adults within the pursuit of discourse. No war is won without deliberation. By outright denouncing it you have failed to open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong, which in itself is a travesty. Balance is found when you listen to all ideas, measure and weight the evidence and come to a conclusion on that basis, rather that blathering on and on about what you believe. The economy is out of balance, plain and simple. The rich are running away with the cash while people sit around their campfires bickering about who is to blame. It’s nonsense. Get a grip people, look at the debates that are going on, and for once in your life challenge your most cherished beliefs about what is beneficial for the whole. Power in the hands of a few is always bad regardless of who the power holder is. That is simple and to the point as you can get it.
Corporate America is guilty of the highest crime in American commerce, and that is theft of the systems on which they depend. If you want a free market, fine. If you want capitalism, fine as well. But don’t sit there and tell me that we need to cut their taxes, allow them freedom in regulation, allow them to talk about “trickle down” economics, or that free trade is really good for us when it is quite frankly not, when it’s killing our economy. You honestly sound like a broken record. Corporate America needs to be put into check by regulation and tax or we are all screwed, get the picture. Capitalism fails if it is an the expense of social progress, infrastructure, and innovation. Pure Capital systems only breed wealth for a select few, spend a few hours in a Casino and you will see the epic fail this sort of economy we are currently peddling towards. It breed chaos and corruption and it’s retarded to insinuate that it doesn’t, or that the seed of it aren’t the cause of our current dilemma. You beat up this blog completely ignoring the fact that it only dispels myths not making claims to it’s own view of what is appropriate.
This is why we as adults and voters need to open our eyes and use sound scientific method in economics to work for change in a balanced direction, no sit there a babble about how wrong someone else is. Purist Capitalism doesn’t work, which is why it needs to be checked by the system and balanced verses the needs of all verses the needs of the few. Too much taxation and regulation and it becomes socialistic which can fail too, but too little and you concentrate the wealth in the hand of a few making them more powerful than government. The numbers just don’t add up. When you do the research you’d realize how bad the current consolidation of wealth really is rather than spewing conservative corporate nonsense. When corporate tax goes down unemployment goes up, not down. When you take away from the infrastructure we depend on, including the military which creates multibillion dollar contracts filled by corporations which create jobs as well. Your logic is flawed plain and simple.
Vern you really, really missed the point and misquoted the point of this post, and you contradict yourself. The economic status quo of supply and demand pricing is tipped in the favor of the wealthy, because if you want “Product A” there is only one place you can find it. See in America right now, competition is skewed, and “the cake is a lie”. That pot of gold at the rainbow isn’t there. There isn’t more money to be made because the cost of living is through the roof, inflation is as bad has it ever has been, and its the banks, financial institutions, and Corporate America which have been taking us to the cleaners. You shouldn’t have to have 3 jobs to break even. It’s call indentured servitude. They don’t cheapen for your sake, the peon, they cheapen because it makes for bigger profits so they can afford to piss on you whenever they like. And that, my friends is how the cookie crumbles. They aren’t harder workers, smarter, better, more motivated, or more worthy, they are just more fortunate that is all. Your arguments about the economy just leave a bad taste in my mouth.
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October 19, 2011 at 4:13 pm
Vern R. Kaine
“The economy is out of balance, plain and simple. The rich are running away with the cash while people sit around their campfires bickering about who is to blame. It’s nonsense. Get a grip people, look at the debates that are going on, and for once in your life challenge your most cherished beliefs about what is beneficial for the whole. Power in the hands of a few is always bad regardless of who the power holder is. That is simple and to the point as you can get it.”
I agree wholeheartedly. And you’re right, there is a contradiction in my rhetoric because the system is corrupt. I realize that at times my words might sound like we should just leave things alone, but that’s hardly the way I feel.
When I worked in banking, I’d get a heads up from corporate on any new rate changes, products and services, or service changes so I had a chance to meet with my staff. Oddly, with no word the night before at 6am the next day I would find out that all the banks were changing their checking account services, and almost exactly in the same way.
That’s a light example, but I say that because the particular bank I worked at bragged about how independent and separate they were from the big banks at the time. In truth, however, it was all an inbred group.
And take Google and Microsoft. Google “plays nice”, but Microsoft doesn’t and the government sicks the justice department on them.
Back to point, we’ll have to disagree on some of those things you mention where you think I’m wrong. I think competition is skewed like you do, but I don’t think the cake is a lie just yet. There’s still a lot of money out there and I work with people each month who are going after it and bringing more control back into their lives.
Whether people actually have control or not is debatable, but the anger and frustration is from people feeling like they have less and less control. I’m not one of those people, but ya, the system still sucks and it’s definitely rigged. ;)
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October 19, 2011 at 6:27 pm
renetascian
Well, I think for me being disabled puts a little different focus on things for me. If jobs are hard for others it’s a freakin’ nightmare for me. It’s hard for me on many levels to “go make more money”. That is why I blog, and why I writing books about subjects rarely touched on in the hopes I can make money doing what I love one day. However in the meantime it can be rough some months getting by. I wear a back brace, and it usually takes insane amounts of painkillers for me when I get hurt so. Just to give you an idea of what things might factor into my decisions and perspectives. To me the biggest problem with our system is the lack of people focus. We are all always moving too fast to really enjoy life with this system. Many of the problems we face have to do with money, both through credit systems, and banking, but also through the inflation that came with financial institutions giving out absurd line of credit accounts.
I think if the economy can’t support a single person having a single basic job (full-time), a basic apartment, and all the basic necessities then something is wrong with that system. You shouldn’t have to beat yourself to death trying to make ends meet, it’s just not helpful or healthy for you. Things that burn brightly burn out fast. If we as a culture don’t learn to slow down, we may very well face that same fate. I might not be as optimistic about capitalism, but I am definitely of the opinion we can find a better way. I am very zen in my way of thinking. I believe in balance, and that too much or too little of anything leads to chaos (though my opinions would differ on the good verse evil argument of balance). But like I tell people, I am an equal opportunity dissenter. :3 I am thankful for your clarification, and I agree that we all have our ideas about how to fix things. I think all ideas are valid, though not all ideas are feasible. All things in moderation.
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October 20, 2011 at 11:19 am
bleatmop
“I think if the economy can’t support a single person having a single basic job (full-time), a basic apartment, and all the basic necessities then something is wrong with that system.”
Wise words. There is definitely something wrong with a system in where you are working full time and can’t support only yourself. It’s the system that is broken in those cases. It reminds me of a Dickinson novel.
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October 21, 2011 at 1:00 am
Vern R. Kaine
I think all sides agree that the economy has to be improved, and not just for the rich.
I also agree with your comments about balance. Restraint is a key component of it, I believe, which is something the American system has lacked for quite some time.
How does the saying go: out of chaos things assemble in a higher order? Let’s see what all this chaos down south (or around the world for that matter) brings as far as that’s concerned.
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October 21, 2011 at 11:40 am
The Arbourist
“A land of universal welfare invariably universalizes mediocrity.”
Canada has a ‘universal welfare system’, and if recent relative economic performance is any guide, I’ll happily take mediocrity, thank you very much. :)
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October 21, 2011 at 11:46 am
The Arbourist
Since you work in a safe and secure University and are sheltered from the economic turmoils of real life, what would you know about economics?
Since you seem to have your head up your ass, how do you know about economics? Slinging mud aside Mr.Scott, economic arguments are not strictly limited to economists. Arguments that are grounded in fact should always carry weight.
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October 21, 2011 at 1:01 pm
renetascian
Quite true, I’d also take a little mediocrity in the place of constant fear of not making it to your next pay check. I often note that people who are against Social Democracy often don’t look at the prosperity and economic stability of nations with them. It’s also a conservative myth that Social or Welfare Democracies don’t work or that businesses suffer under the system which is quite to the contrary. The “Business Suffers” argument is a pity party argument of the wealthy select. In our current system the worker and average citizen is abused and used like yesterdays condom, overworked, and underpaid prostitutes to the Capitalist Bottom line. Any society that favors capital over infrastructure is sure to loose both… Economic security is not found in a piece of paper or a financial institution but in a roof over your head, food in your belly, and ground to stand and build upon. Money is worthless but what value you give it. Any society that values money as a paramount above all assets is doomed to failure. Remember, you are only as strong as your weakest attribute.
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October 21, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Vern R. Kaine
“I’d also take a little mediocrity in the place of constant fear of not making it to your next pay check.”
So would most, and that’s fine, Business owners are relatively fine with that fear if it’s in regards to competition or the customer; it’s more of a concern, actually. Where it becomes fear – as in it becomes something that is overwhelming, debilitating, and leads to desperation and irrational behavior – is when the government’s behind the fear.
This is just me, but I would hate to settle for mediocrity. It might to some be happiness, but it’s never fulfillment. For me, not achieving my full potential might as well be death.
And to your point about fear, business owners and executives – again, unless the government has taken that fear away – live with that stress and fear day in and day out. Guys like Jobs and Gates take it to the level of paranoia. Gates always operated as though Microsoft’s demise was only 6 months to 2 years away, never taking anything as “certain” except that.
There is an incredible amount of stress in a small business, even when it is doing well. Doing well means the next cyclical downturn is right around the corner yet you don’t know when or where it’s going to hit. It’s a constant battle.
In that context, you might see why business owners get upset when those who relatively don’t take any risk at all say that the people that do are evil, aren’t doing enough, or aren’t paying their “fair share”.
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October 21, 2011 at 9:28 pm
bleatmop
It’s “Out of Chaos Comes Order”. It’s a phrase used by free-masons apparently. I figure it’s a good term for revolutionaries but not so much for those that want to reform the system to be more equitable for all. The little guys tend to get stomped on during revolutions.
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October 22, 2011 at 7:37 am
Alan Scott
You guys paint every rich or successful businessman with an incredibly wide brush. In a dynamic economic system some people have to take risks.
The current collapse of the EU shows what happens when you try to eliminate risk for every single citizen .Prosperity and total absence of risk never go together .
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October 23, 2011 at 9:55 am
The Arbourist
AS: You guys paint every rich or successful businessman […]
Wait for it… ironic juxtaposition coming in 3…2…1….
AS:The current collapse of the EU shows what happens when you try to eliminate risk for every single citizen
A little Bill Maher to help ya out. :>
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October 23, 2011 at 11:23 am
bleatmop
I’m not sure who that lady was, but she hit it dead on. “Socialism is really about recognizing that there are limits to what the market can do.” That mirrors what my belief is; is that capitalism is a great tool for disseminating luxury goods. For things like roads, water, military, hospitals, ect, the market does a shit-tastic job at these things and creates tons of waste where there should be none.
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October 23, 2011 at 2:29 pm
renetascian
I agree, but the Cold War coupled with “State sponsored atheism”/absence of religious freedoms in communist nations and the place of Judea-Christian religions has turned socialism into a bad word in peoples mouths. Capitalism much like a casino, only creates wealth for a select very, very small minority of people. Ask anyone who has ever been to Vegas. Very, very few people walk out of there with any wealth at all. Casino/Pure capitalist economies fail because they aren’t about building or making anything useful, but about gambling and trading in currency alone. I agree with Bleat and Arbourist on this wholeheartedly.
Social Democracies don’t eliminate competition, or risk in line with prosperous gains, only that it recognizes that “profiteering” with peoples necessities is flawed at the most basic level. This is what math and reality teaches us, but if we maintain that this “profiteering” is good for business, we will all be sadly mistaken when the coffers turn up empty. I never believed that all business men are bad, but what do you call outright profiteering when everyone else is suffering. It’s okay to call wrong that which is genuinely underhanded, privileged abuse of the people and I do so unapologetically. Arguing against socializing certain industries for the benefit of the majority is petty and cruel.
The businesses of this nation owe a great deal to the US government, in the form of tax for all of the wonderful infrastructure they piss on like greedy little children. Additionally, revamping our social programs with appropriate capital from such revenue is in both their best interest and ours. Do not mistaken the failure of the EU systems for anything else. I think the healthy economy is a hybrid of socialized systems and open market capitalism. Social programs and progressive taxes and regulation that keeps capitalist ventures from crippling people’s abilities to afford basic necessities or find work.
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October 24, 2011 at 5:58 am
Alan Scott
The Arbourist,
Bill Maher makes a lot of worthless points. He does not address what I brought up, the collapse of the Socialist EU. He makes a bunch of cliched arguments about the government running prisons and the military . How about how government regulation protects the status quo in education because the teachers union must keep it’s monopoly in mis educating American children .
The government regulated the financial and housing sectors in the US and collapsed them . Then it blamed the whole mess on ” Wall Street ” because that is easy to sell to OWS morons .
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October 24, 2011 at 10:26 am
bleatmop
I love how Alan provides misinformation or blatant lies in virtually every sentence. It’s baiting 101 as anyone could spend a lot of time correcting all the intentional errors to him to only be purposely ignored. Well trolled Alan, well trolled.
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October 24, 2011 at 2:49 pm
renetascian
You obviously have no clue what brought about the crash, which is what this entire blog and several of Arb’s blogs are about. The “Crashes” you talk about were because of the same financial miss managements that led other crashes happen. So let me paint the picture. The market over several decades as become a capital centric one, which lead to severe market inflation, and the purposeful overvaluing of securities both in the EU and the US. It was almost like a cold war of cash between the many nations of the world. This sort of pseudo-competitive capitalism was not backed by sufficient asset, or infrastructural foundations. A domino effect of financial burden began to rule the markets internally as early as 2001, which was propped up by federalist-like capital driven ego maniacs who bought into the financial innovation hooha.
They did this under the false belief that this fortune reaped with greed would create jobs, however the system was pure capitalism in nature which is unstable, and immaterial. The only way to make more money in a system with a ‘limited’ market reach is to cut corners, and hire fewer workers. The EU made a lot of infrastructural changes, but it is failing not because of Socialism but because it has no real power, incompetent, petty leadership and insufficient revenue to support the programs on its budget because of the same economic fiasco. The people want the social programs we have, plus some; however, they refuse to pay for it or cooperate with policy. The EU spends all it’s time and money spinning it’s wheels in what I’d refer to as the “fruitless power trip of a false government created and feed through greed”. If you believe the EU failed because of socialism, then the only moron here is you.
Pull your head out of the conservative cloud and actually do some research, rather than parroting the conservative party line like a flippin’ moron. The Occupy Wall Street people know why they are there which is because the rich our profiting off or our misfortune; though they could really benefit from some solid leadership. The problem we have hear is the same in the EU and many other places in the world, that purist capitalism is only beneficial for the few lucky enough to weather the storm of poker chips, and poker faces. It’s our money and tax dollars going down the drain into this system that claims it’s “high risk investments” are worth the ridiculous loses and market instability we have already seen. It isn’t about socialism, it’s about the epic fail of our unbalanced capitalistic system; thus why unemployment is on the rise, and 401K and other investments are disappearing.
Any man who makes his money in a casino best be ready to win big today, and lose his shirt tomorrow, however the problem with this system is it drags everyone else down with it. Open your eyes Alan. Stop sitting there in the Cold War Christian Conservative mentality that socialized democracy is bad. The Soviet Union was communist by that wasn’t why it failed, it failed because it was a nearly a dictatorship. A government filled with greedy politicians who had their fingers in everything, which has little to do with socialized hybrid systems. You don’t understand the issues because you refuse to understand the situation. You repeat the mantra of generations past, and you are quite frankly wrong. Purist Capitalism is only beneficial in certain markets, but creates instability in others. You fail because you refuse to educate yourself about what socialism is, you don’t understand why the poorly orchestrated “federalist” EU is collapsing, and you missed the point Arb made about market stability in socialized systems.
You fail not because you lack intelligence or capacity to reason, but because you lack the desire to listen and learn for yourself. Come back when you don’t sound like the ticker at screen bottom during an episode of The O’Reilly Factor. Socialism is not the bogeyman; however, when a society asks for social programs they need to be prepared to pay the tax for such systems when they arise. Progressive taxation is fair whether you agree with me or not; however, with all the loopholes, and tax breaks for the rich it is now regressive taxation which is unfair. If you are going to debate, you best know what you are talking about.
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October 26, 2011 at 8:06 am
Vern R. Kaine
“It’s a phrase used by the free-masons apparently.”
I actually first read it in a book on memory and learning, actually, so I don’t know what the source prior to that was. Perhaps the freemasons, but it’s something I believe we see in nature. Smart guys, those masons. ;)
“The little guys tend to get stomped on during revolutions.”
You mean in the end? Revolutions are started by the “little guys”, aren’t they? I think they’ve had a “win some, lose some” track record, no? Either way, that’s why I like a system that allows for the little guy to become a big guy. Granted I’d like to see the playing field far more level, but to me right now “difficult” would be the way I’d describe it rather than “impossible”.
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October 26, 2011 at 8:26 am
Vern R. Kaine
“Socialism is really about recognizing that there are limits to what the market can do.” That mirrors what my belief is; is that capitalism is a great tool for disseminating luxury goods. For things like roads, water, military, hospitals, etc, the market does a shit-tastic job at these things and creates tons of waste where there should be none.”
Here’s the common ground that I think works relatively well in Canada and I wish we’d see a little more of in the U.S.. (Of course, we’d have to start by defining “Socialism” first!) Not entirely sure what you mean by “waste”, Bleat (I think you’re referring to the environment) but while I agree that on “people things” like health & safety a “cash second” perspective is necessary, which socialism accommodates. However with that, I believe we still can employ capitalist tenets like efficiency, accountability, and innovation to create something that is symbiotic rather than adversarial.
Only the hardest of right-wingers (what I would consider the lunatic fringe right) believe that the private sector should be in charge of the health & safety things. Even with health right-wingers use the argument that everyone is taken care of in an emergency health situation regardless of being insured.
In spite of the rhetoric thrown back and forth, I think we’d find more actual common ground in what the majority left and the right are saying and wanting. At least in my circles, anyways.
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