The long winter in Canada and the United States is going to challenge the OWS movement. Living in a tent sucks at the best of times, but add snow and cold temperatures to the mix and the proposition becomes quite untenable (at least to my delicate tastes). I hope that the organizers of the OWS have planned for the elements, perhaps moving the focus south during the winter and then coming back in force in the north during the spring. Whatever their plans may be, I hope no one is injured due to exposure to the elements.
The weather aside, another feature playing prominently into the future of the OWS movement is its apparent resilience to the corrosive effects of the right wing media. Quite simply, it would seem the OWS seem to have resisted so for being tarred and feathered by its main ideological opponents.
“Hardline conservatives struggle to find a candidate to go up against Barack Obama in 2012. Sarah Palin gets booed in public. Tea Party numbers are dwindling and now the group is ranking amongst the least popular groups in the country. Meanwhile, Occupy Wall Street has surged forward both in public consciousness and in popularity. The right-wing response to Occupy Wall St. has been limp and incoherent, mainly centered around spreading urban legends about dirty hippies and avoiding any substantive engagement.
How did the right-wing lose hold of the narrative? Here are four reasons it has been unsuccessful (so far) in steering and reframing the discourse surrounding OWS and the movement’s focus on the injustice of the 1%’s dominance of our economy and politics.”
The focus away from the mostly incoherent babble from the Tea Party is a good thing. The sheer amount of stupidity amalgamated into one movement was dangerous for the political discourse of the US, polarizing even further the divide between people.
1. Its “woe is me” pose may have lost luster in an ongoing economic crisis.
“The stock and trade of the American right is to play the victim. Right-wing propaganda in the form of Fox News, talk radio and direct mail is full of whining about how conservatives are just so oppressed because they can’t impose their agenda on others by fiat. The Tea Party’s motto was one of victimization: “I want my country back!” At first, many perceived the Tea Party as a populist uprising against unpopular initiatives like the bank bailout. As time has worn on, however, it’s become clear that the Tea Party has no real interest in holding corporations accountable, and that its leadership generally seemed interested in exploiting the bank bailout as part of a larger anti-government ideology coupled with a heartfelt devotion to the typical culture warrior nonsense.”
The persecution experience of the majority plays out on many levels. Encountering this juxtaposition while arguing with people is most distressing as it shows the extreme inversion of values that has taken place that have mostly swept reasonable debate away.
2. The obsession with sex.
“The Republicans swept many state elections and the U.S. House by convincing the voters that they intended to do something about the economic crisis and lower the unemployment rate. Instead, they devoted most of their attention to the supposed crisis of people having unauthorized orgasms. The House can’t pass a jobs bill to save their lives, but they can pass one bill after another attacking abortion rights or defunding family planning spending. The first big showdown between Obama and the House Republicans, in fact, was over condoms and the pill; House Republicans threatened to shut down the federal government in order to prevent American women from getting subsidized birth control pills from Planned Parenthood. On the state level, voters saw the newly elected Republicans do the same thing. One state after another is falling into disrepair and seeing unemployment numbers stay high, but their state legislatures are more interested in defunding contraception and restricting abortion than in paying attention to people’s economic concerns.”
I though “the plan” for Republicans was to promise social conservative reform to get elected, and then once elected deliver right of centre economic policy while ignoring their social promises. It would seem rather than following the plan they’ve actually dug their heels in and decided to make the social agenda a sticking point. Apparently no one has told them that the items they are supporting are regressive anti-woman measures that seemed designed to take the US back to the Dark Ages.
3. The looniness.
“Between the Tea Party and the electoral sweeps, the right seemed to decide that it was popular enough that it could let it all hang out without getting any blowback. The American right has always been loony and paranoid, but 2011 was when the looniness really came out and became unavoidable. There were Glenn Beck’s paranoid rantings. So many right wingers became loudly fixated on President Obama’s birth story that he was eventually forced to release his birth certificate. Republican presidential candidates find they must pay tribute to all sorts of irrational nonsense, from denying global warming to creationism, in order just to get their foot in the door. Average Americans have come to expect that we’ll be hearing about communist mind control chemicals in the drinking water soon. It’s hard to see the Tea Party as rational actors who can make solid economic decisions when they spend so much time emailing each other with lists of reasons they think President Obama was born in Kenya.”
Not much to add here, other than to highlight the sad commitment to delusional nonsense.
4. The out-of-sync ideological preoccupations.
“Beyond the obviously loony right-wing nonsense is the inability to set aside unpopular preoccupations. The right assumed the electoral sweeps meant the country was ready to hear ideas the far right has been nursing for a long time in the underground. Right-wingers talked bank bailouts until they got into power and then switched to talking about permanently eliminating major taxes on the super-wealthy, ending Social Security and privatizing popular government services–all ideas that don’t sit well with the public at large. On the contrary, in economic hard times, Americans hang on harder to social welfare programs like Social Security, and they stop thinking it’s so great that rich people have more money than they know what to do with while people are starving in the streets.
Because of these ideological preoccupations and wealth-worshipping, the American right was wholly unequipped to deal with the rise of liberal protests in the form of Occupy Wall Street and We Are the 99 Percent. The protesters have addressed record unemployment, the foreclosure crisis and growing inequalities between the wealthy and the rest of us; hence the reference to the 1 percent of Americans who control 40 percent of our nation’s wealth. The right couldn’t even grasp the actual complaints of the protesters and instead responded with We Are the 53 Percent, a reference to the 53 percent of Americans who pay federal income tax. The problem with that is no one was talking about most federal income tax payers; the liberal protesters are defending the vast majority of Americans, a group that includes people currently paying federal income tax, and those who can’t because they’re poor or students or retired.
The whole point of Occupy Wall Street is that a middle-class person who struggles to get by has more in common with an unemployed person than with the rich; in fact, a middle-class person could easily become a poor person in this economy. That is untrue of the 1 percent. The utter inability to grasp that basic argument has exposed the American right for what it is: a group of intellectually bereft people whose reliance on empty ideological platitudes prevents them from engaging with a changing world.”
I’ve highlighted the author’s assertion because it seems many discussions get sidetracked when it comes to discussing what the OWS protests are about. More importantly though, what I find most disturbing about debating with many people who self identify as holding right wing opinion is the lack of commitment to grounding there presuppositions in fact. Consider the response garnered from my last attempt at discussing educational issues with a religious conservative blogger. After thoroughly dissecting and refuting his arguments the responses offered in return were sadly bereft of any substantive counter arguments.
Nothing.
No content, no assertions, just assorted whinging about tone and how angry atheists are and how not having a skydaddy is bad for me. Admittedly, the format chosen by me was very critical (what else can you be when confronted with nuclear grade stupidity?) but not insulting to the person in question, just their argumentation. How do you grow as a person if you cannot interact reasonably with ideas that conflict with your own? The alter.net article struck a chord with me as it seemed to mirror my experiences while debating a ‘conservative’ from the US.





23 comments
November 5, 2011 at 10:04 am
Alan Scott
The Arbourist ,
” How do you grow as a person if you cannot interact reasonably with ideas that conflict with your own? ”
With all due respect, I find your assertion that you are a reasonable debater arguing with crazy fact denying morons, to be laughable. You seem to lack any ability to be self aware of your own liabilities. Or to put it another way, you can’t conceive of how any rational person could possibly disagree with your core positions.
I can understand your side I just reject it. You absolutely cannot look at the world from a religious viewpoint. So you mock us. We have thick skins, we can take it. When you are mocked back by us you seem shocked that it is possible.
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November 5, 2011 at 11:36 am
The Arbourist
And a fine Good morning to you too, Mr.Scott.
With all due respect, I find your assertion that you are a reasonable debater arguing with crazy fact denying morons, to be laughable.
Here is an important point to note – right here you are making an assertion – it would add weight to your claim if you based your assertion on something more than your opinion.
Or to put it another way, you can’t conceive of how any rational person could possibly disagree with your core positions.
Again, this is opinion and has limited merit.
I can understand your side I just reject it.
It would be interesting to explore the reasons and rational for your support of one position. Simply saying you reject a position does not add much to the discourse.
You absolutely cannot look at the world from a religious viewpoint. So you mock us. We have thick skins, we can take it.
Again, your assertion is based on opinion, you would need to support your assertion with evidence of what you claim. Watch how I did that in my Ignorance is strength post –
You see that? I address what USD said, not my interpretation of what he said, or what I think I said, just his words alone. Then, I provided counter-arguments against his position by using a logical argumentation supported by evidence. The evidence being that critical thinking, questioning and curiosity are a significant part of learning. Calling the attributes of learning ‘intellectual rape’ is simply incorrect and should be called into question.
I linked to USD’s blog purposefully to see if he, or anyone else could actually defend what was stated. The arguments mentioned in the post were never brought up. What was mentioned were insults, admissions of ignorance and “tone” complaints.
Lets look at what you said about the situation –
So you state your opinion Mr.Scott. It is merely that, opinion. Without evidence for you claim, one could even say your assertion is baseless. More importantly, nothing substantive was added to the conversation.
When you are mocked back by us you seem shocked that it is possible.
Consider if during a conversation I said that well, since we are having a lightning storm we had better watch our behaviour Zeus *must be angry* and we should not provoke his wrath. You would look and feel much as I do when people claim the magic man of choice informs their decisions. The shock is, given our modern age, people still persist in believing in mythology that has little to no relevance and on the whole is harmful to society.
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November 5, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Lorne
I enjoyed reading this post and when I get some time, will read your rebuttal to religious fundamentalism that you mentioned. In the meantime, I wonder if you have read Chris Hedges’ book, I Don’t Believe In Atheists, the thesis of which is that the ‘new’ atheists (Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, etc.) are as intractable and fundamentalist in their assertions as are their religious counterparts. Both offer a binary view of the world, both argue for the exceptionalism and exclusivity of their positions, and both show complete intolerance of competing views.
There characteristics seem to pervade the far right-wing of American politics as well. They take as articles of faith their espousal of unfettered capitalism, that taxation is inherently bad, and that their society can achieve a heaven on earth once their beliefs are incorporated.
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November 5, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Vern R. Kaine
If I can (help) bring the discussion back to the post topic, I think to give OWS kudos for withstanding some “assault” from the right is laughable. For one, relative to the heaps of praise they’ve received from the left, the criticism from the right has been minimal.
5 networks have glorified them as heroes, only one has criticized them, . Of that criticism, only a small part of that has been based upon ideology The rest has been regarding facts concerning the ineptness of the movement as a political or economic force, its thuggery, and its hypocrisy. Those criticisms have been well-deserved..
For instance, its ineptness: the movement brags about “raising awareness.” After all the cost, crime, and damage, the left brags that this is some crowning, monumental thing it’s achieved. It isn’t. Protests aren’t needed for “awareness” anymore. That’s why they are compared to something from 50 years ago – it’s the last time “awareness” ever achieved anything, and even then it was protesting a law or a government. OWS is doing neither.
So people know about OWS. So what? A singing cat on YouTube has a clearer message, and raises more awareness in a shorter amount of time with less cost. Besides, people were aware of WikiLeaks, What did that do?
If OWS succeeds in causing a run on the major banks, I think that’s something to brag about because it will have both an economic and political impact that anyone can respect and get behind. If they park their butts in front of governor’s mansions or the White House until the financial reform laws are improved, that’s the right kind of awareness.
Until then, any progress they make is sabotaged unless they can purge the thugs from their ranks who, whether a part of Occupy or not, are creating crimes in the Occupy name and on their watch. Until those elements are removed, OWS will be nothing but a mob of thugs whether it’s 1% of the movement or 99% of it.
Hypocrisy: they’re about people, and about jobs? They’re causing job losses, and are they repaying vendors for damage done to their stores, or helping to clean the graffiti? if there’s a YouTube video from the past 6 weeks showing this, I’ll change my stance but I haven’t seen one.
And before someone brings up the “bad apples” defense, watch the documentary “The Corporation” and see how the left criticizes such an excuse from those on the right. The left characterizes over a million companies based on the actions they see from perhaps 5 or even 10 that they know about only from the news, They’re all about criticizing the many based upon the few, yet for OWS this is somehow “off limits” for anyone to criticize when not just financial crimes but vandalism, child neglect, and sexual abuse crimes are being committed (and yes, if these happen in Occupy spaces on Occupy’s watch, they own it). For a site being so about women’s rights and social justice, there hasn’t been one peep here about it criticizing OWS to act faster to remove these elements from its ranks.
The assaults are a fact, the violence is a fact, the damage is a fact, but the left dodges it and writes it off with some Machiavellian reference. Rather than be fully honest and admit to it, they instead prefer to redirect and dwell on how the mean ol’ right is making criticisms of them and what – hurting their feelings? I’m surprised that this so-called moral superiority of the left doesn’t come with a thicker skin. ;)
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November 5, 2011 at 3:24 pm
The Arbourist
Thanks for stopping by. :)
I wonder if you have read Chris Hedges’ book, I Don’t Believe In Atheists, the thesis of which is that the ‘new’ atheists (Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, etc.) are as intractable and fundamentalist in their assertions as are their religious counterparts.
No, I have not. I have however read another book of his called ‘War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning’ and found that to be an excellent and informative read. I heard a little about Hedges book, and much of it not very positive.
Both offer a binary view of the world, both argue for the exceptionalism and exclusivity of their positions, and both show complete intolerance of competing views.
Except that one of them has a basis in fact, and the other does not. Admittedly, It is easy to fall into the exclusive binary trap when it comes to certain positions New Atheists take, but when arguing empirical fact vs. Magic there really is not much leeway when it comes many issues.
There characteristics seem to pervade the far right-wing of American politics as well.
I’m not sure I would draw such a straight line between the new atheists and the far right. Rationality plays a large role in what new atheism is about, if conclusive evidence was presented that godhead x actually existed I’m pretty sure their tune would change. This changing of stance when presented with credible information, I believe, is a significant cleavage between new atheist and rightwing fundamentalist thought.
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November 6, 2011 at 9:51 am
renetascian
You never refute the claim, just complain that Arbourist makes it. Present the facts and we’ll hear you, present your ‘opinion’ and of course we’ll be appalled not by your wit but by your stupidity. Ignorance is forgivable, stupidity is not as you are acting in ignorance. While those of your caliber of ignorance may be impressed by your opinion, we have higher standards and are not impressed with anybody’s opinion or beliefs. As skeptical people we can be aware of our own liabilities, even admit them if asked. But you didn’t ask, did you? You assumed. You refuse to grasp this, only to make loose claims to flaws which says more about your lack of knowledge about the speaker than it does of the speaker independently.
I am certainly not one to mock you, I point out the fallacy in the hope that you educate yourself of the value of knowledge, reason and skeptical discourse (Faith ≠ Knowledge). I take you as being an intelligent being, but your retardation and why you continue to retard yourself befuddles us all. Remember this, the comfort of fiction is fleeting, because it will abandon you when you need it most. Facts deflect criticism better than baseless accusations or party lines. Fiction only blinds you to the facts; however, you are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs. We, however, are also obliged to ignore that which has no credulity (AKA your opinions and beliefs). Not because we dislike you, but because we have sufficient reason and evidence to assert it. We dismiss your beliefs just as you dismiss the beliefs of other religions; evidence speaks for itself, beliefs just make assertions that can’t be proven.
Arb’s argument is about the blatant ignorance of conservative right wingers, many discourses of evidence sufficiently satisfies this claim. You shouldn’t defend positions which are indefensible simply because it’s the party line, or because your dogmatic ego has been bruised, and as an educated adult you should know better. The actions of those in conservative politics clearly proves the possession of a dangerous recipe of ignorance, apathy and self interest to the issue at hand that is most certainly worth scrutiny. Maybe if you had facts you’d actually have something worth adding rather than hurling baseless assertions at the author. I don’t agree with Arb on many things, this just isn’t one of them and ignorant people disquiet me as they should to all reasonable people. A reiteration from one of Arb’s other blogs to remind you of the failure of your discourse. Back up your opinions with fact and we’ll give them credence.

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November 6, 2011 at 11:47 am
Alan Scott
You guys, Arbourist, renetascian, have what I term Obama’s disease. You use as many words as possible, when brevity is required. I do not want to address all of your points because you make far too many to keep the conversation interesting. So I will stick to the title points in the original post.
” 1. Its “woe is me” pose may have lost luster in an ongoing economic crisis. ”
” The Tea Party’s motto was one of victimization: “I want my country back!” At first, many perceived the Tea Party as a populist uprising against unpopular initiatives like the bank bailout. As time has worn on, however, it’s become clear that the Tea Party has no real interest in holding corporations accountable, ”
The Tea Party’s main point was to push back the Left’s exploitation of the crisis.
You leftwingers have a socialist goal of taxing successful people and businesses so that you can be in charge of everything. It is as simple as that. Have a bureaucrat from say the Federal Department of Donuts telling Dunkin Donuts how big the donut hole has to be. ” never let a crisis go to waste “. The financial crisis was the greatest opportunity to ram through Congress all of the Progressive’s wet dream taxes and people control regulations, in the last 70 years.
The Tea Party is simply the semi-organized resistance to that tyranny .
” 2. The obsession with sex.
“The Republicans swept many state elections and the U.S. House by convincing the voters that they intended to do something about the economic crisis and lower the unemployment rate. Instead, they devoted most of their attention to the supposed crisis of people having unauthorized orgasms. The House can’t pass a jobs bill to save their lives, ”
An outright lie on your part. You Left wingers believe that only make work government jobs and tax bills create jobs . If that were true , Obama’s first stimulus bill would have ” saved or created ” jobs, instead of destroying jobs. If Socialism actually worked we would now have ” 5 million new green jobs “. Do you remember those False Promises ? Of course you do not . It’s called selective memory .
The Republicans in the House of Representatives has passed a number of real jobs bills that are buried in the Democratic Senate . You know jobs bills that actually would work because they give the private sector reasons to created jobs . I know to a neo Communist as yourself, those do not count. Only government creates jobs .
” 3. The looniness.
“Between the Tea Party and the electoral sweeps, the right seemed to decide that it was popular enough that it could let it all hang out without getting any blowback. The American right has always been loony and paranoid, but 2011 was when the looniness really came out and became unavoidable. ”
So the Tea Partyers are ‘ loons ‘ ? The Tea Party exercised it’s citizens rights the way you are ‘ Supposed ‘ to exercise them . That is looniness to a radical such as you? They peacefully demonstrated and held rallies. They cleaned up after themselves . The police knew that no trouble would occur at Tea Parties . The Tea Party ‘ loons ‘ marshaled their cause into power at the ballot box, like God intended it to be !!
Contrast this with the Non-Loons of OWS . Camp out in public places, so as to deny their use to fellow citizens for months at a time. Block entrances to businesses so as to deny the ability of fellow citizens to make a living .
Deliberately provoke clashes with police and cause riots. Block road ways to and from meetings of their political enemies. Deliberately walk into the paths of cars in order to provoke accidents and make themselves ‘ Victims ‘ for the leftwing media .
Failure to provide adequate security at their camps, resulting in assaults, thefts and rapes of women . Failure to cooperate with authorities in the investigation of the crimes .
” 4. The out-of-sync ideological preoccupations.
” Right-wingers talked bank bailouts until they got into power and then switched to talking about permanently eliminating major taxes on the super-wealthy, ending Social Security and privatizing popular government services–all ideas that don’t sit well with the public at large.
”
More taxing of the wealthy will not help the poor . Sounds really good in theory, has never worked in practice. Did it work in 1917 Russia ? Is it working in Italy, Spain , or Greece ?
Jonah Goldberg of National Review said that although OWS and the Tea Party both were angry at the Bank bailouts, the Tea Partiers as taxpayers were teed off for having to pay for them while the 99% were mad they were not getting any bailouts.
” The whole point of Occupy Wall Street is that a middle-class person who struggles to get by has more in common with an unemployed person than with the rich; in fact, a middle-class person could easily become a poor person in this economy. ”
In the 1980s the Great and Wonderful Ronald Reagan showed exactly what it took to lift the unemployed and the poor to prosperity. Just do everything the opposite of Barak Hussein Obama .
A middle class person falling on hard times will not save himself by joining OWS and becoming a smelly hippie .
” No content, no assertions, just assorted whinging about tone and how angry atheists are and how not having a skydaddy is bad for me. Admittedly, the format chosen by me was very critical (what else can you be when confronted with nuclear grade stupidity?) but not insulting to the person in question, just their argumentation. ”
Another outright lie . You say you are not insulting to the person in question . Do you ever read your own propaganda ? You constantly put out the most insulting rhetoric against Christianity on your website, then you think you can just engage in a civil conversation with those same Christians ?
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November 6, 2011 at 12:28 pm
The Arbourist
Congratulations on learning the cut and paste function. It would be nice if rather than quoting and adding neo-con talking points you addressed the issue. But hey, its progress.
Anyhow, lets continue to the bottom bit.
Another outright lie . You say you are not insulting to the person in question .
In the original post, I was not. Being critical of what a person says does NOT necessarily mean being insulting. In the ignorance is strength post I did not attack USD, it was his arguments that I criticized.
Do you ever read your own propaganda ?
Seeing what you wrote in this post, I do think the question would apply to you as well.
You constantly put out the most insulting rhetoric against Christianity on your website, then you think you can just engage in a civil conversation with those same Christians ?
*sigh* Way to miss the point, as usual.
The point was that to ARGUE you need to RESPOND TO THE ARGUMENT, not the tone, not your feelings, not what you think the person meant, but actually what was said. The fact that USD, yourself and others feel offended by having what you say examined and criticized does not change the fact that the arguments presented by USD were wrong.
Furthermore, if you think I am wrong, argue against what I’ve said and show WHY I am wrong. That to date, has not happened. To be honest I doubt it will because the positions taken in USD’s post are not particularly defensible or rational.
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November 6, 2011 at 12:52 pm
The Arbourist
For instance, its ineptness: the movement brags about “raising awareness.” After all the cost, crime, and damage, the left brags that this is some crowning, monumental thing it’s achieved. It isn’t. Protests aren’t needed for “awareness” anymore. That’s why they are compared to something from 50 years ago – it’s the last time “awareness” ever achieved anything, and even then it was protesting a law or a government. OWS is doing neither.
Raising awareness and bringing it to national attention is an important achievement for any movement. The OWS movement has gone global and the issues of inequality and disparity are being raised and being forced into mainstream debate. This act huge, and our discussing it here is a testament to the power of what OWS has done (well maybe not so much here as I’ve always been a supporter of egalitarianism.)
Besides, people were aware of WikiLeaks, What did that do?
Oh you know, that little blip known as the Arab Spring, nothing major.
For a site being so about women’s rights and social justice, there hasn’t been one peep here about it criticizing OWS to act faster to remove these elements from its ranks.
I did not realize that I was a spokesperson for the OWS movement. In that case I *have* been remiss in my duties.
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November 6, 2011 at 1:02 pm
The Arbourist
I’m just looking at the original post and trying to make connections to how what you are saying relates to the post.
For the most part it does not.
Much of what you write is your opinion and thoughts on how OWS is going down and your dislike for many of things you see going on. Fantastic, but burying several uncited criticisms within a long response makes a lot of work for me if I want to make a reasonably coherent response.
I think it would be more fruitful to discuss the issues individually, and find a common reference so I can better understand where you are coming from, as to better frame the debate.
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November 7, 2011 at 11:54 am
Vern R. Kaine
This act huge, and our discussing it here is a testament to the power of what OWS has done.
Matter of perspective, I guess. I realize that dialogue precedes action, but I pay far more respect to the latter whereas I believe many just settle for dialogue, and dare I say, “awareness”. What I pay the most respect to beyond action is achievement. What OWS actually achieves remains to be seen relative to its cost.
Oh you know, that little blip known as the Arab Spring, nothing major. “
Haha! You give WikiLeaks major credit for that? From the Amnesty view, perhaps. There were dozens of far more serious factors than words on a page that were surely more serious instigators. You know, little “blips” like lack of food, human rights violations, and other staples of brutal dictatorships. But sure, let’s believe in the left-wing bubble that some pieces of paper from a molester trumped all that. If Assange was so effective, why’s Manning still in jail then?
“I did not realize that I was a spokesperson for the OWS movement. In that case I *have* been remiss in my duties.”
It would be nice if the movement actually DID have a spokesperson, but that’s just testament to its disorganization.
No, you’re not a spokesperson but you’re a glorifier of them in way that tries to say that this so-called “powerful movement” is powerless to hold any responsibility for the crimes that occur in their name and on their watch. It’s a glorified view that to exist needs to trivialize, minimize, or outright ignore the crimes that are occurring daily within the movement to keep its own special brand of kool-aid as sweet and as “rah rah” worthy as can be throughout the campaign. Ironically, this is the very same thing the left criticizes the right for doing when they support a war, but I guess when the left does it, it’s apparently OK.
I think if these crimes occurred anywhere unassociated with the OWS movement you’d be all over them. Your defense that you’re not a spokesperson for the group is, in my opinion, a cop out. How about simply speaking out for the women who were assaulted, and giving OWS even a little criticism for not having more of their $hit together, even if it’s tough love? For bull$hit, loser reasons people on the left find this impossible to do.
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November 7, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Vern R. Kaine
I see the Occupy movement having a lack of leadership and exaggerating small acts in order to make them out to be more successful than they are. I believe this is disingenuous.
That alone would be fine – who am I to say when a group has to have their $hit together? But what angers me is that in the meantime women are being assaulted, children are being neglected, and property is being damaged and I blame Occupy’s disorganization and lack of leadership solely for that. These camps where all this occurs is a choice, not a necessity, and it doesn’t take 8 weeks to get that together. Why is anyone not allowed to criticize this choice based upon the results?
I am ready, willing, and able to give the Occupy movement credit where it’s due, and for where I think they deserve credit I have done so, but I’m hardly going to pretend like “awareness” is some monumental achievement when something like ComicCon is far less a serious issue and yet far more organized (with far less crime!)
I actually don’t want to see Occupy go away. I think we need a solid, serious voice on the left and the right to move forward on the common ground, and there is much common ground that can be moved forward on. Compensation reform, health care reform, removing government waste, lax legislation, unfair tax codes, support for small business, etc..
Here’s what I see happening, though – the left is latching on to Occupy with the same “Moral Superiority”, “We’re Good, You’re Evil” stance that they do many of their other causes, so you can imagine the hypocrisy that seems to be apparent when so many morally inferior things occur under its banner. If you want the basis for my emotional response, there it is.
From a rational perspective, Occupy risks alienation by politicians and does zero to garner support from independents and moderates who will be required for their votes if anything is going to truly change. The politicians need to know that Americans will not simply vote based upon party or ideology anymore, and i think Occupy, in its current form, detracts from that.
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November 7, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Vern R. Kaine
“I think it would be more fruitful to discuss the issues individually, and find a common reference so I can better understand where you are coming from, as to better frame the debate.”
Fair enough.
I’ll address the four points here (and try to succinctly!)
1. Its “woe is me” pose may have lost luster in an ongoing economic crisis.
Agreed. No one on the right is truly feeling sorry for the rich right now. They do, however, feel attacked along with them because right now the “rich” includes many of them who are business owners and entrepreneurs.
In contrast to this, we see some “woe is me” from people like college students who have $100k debts from useless degrees and others who are whining just a little too much (in my opinion) based upon the circumstances.
2. The obsession with sex.
This claim is laughable. No one’s lambasting “unauthorized orgasms” here. That’s a strawman. Sex is considered a casual, leisure act, so when one considers this “oh so serious” movement, you’d think if people were serious they’d be screwing a lot less. If people can be that distracted and that hedonistic at the time, then it suggests that they’re not as angry or as focused as they claim to be.
Would the Million Man March be taken as seriously if it was the Million Man Orgy? I doubt it.
3. The looniness.
The tea party was chock-full of loonies, but in spite of that no one was raped, and nothing was really damaged. That showed a larger amount of responsibility than Occupy has shown. The Tea Party also showed their sanity when it came to the voting booth – they had a goal to change the mid-term elections by voting in candidates (for better or worse) more in line with their views. Loonies will always get the cameras, but there’s little by comparison so far that the Occupy movement can show as leadership, responsibility, or sanity – things which would hopefully be in enough quantity to offset the loonies in its ranks.
4. The out-of-sync ideological preoccupations.
Here’s what I think is out of sync – protesting a business to try and change laws rather than a lawmaker.
“The whole point of Occupy Wall Street is that a middle-class person who struggles to get by has more in common with an unemployed person than with the rich; in fact, a middle-class person could easily become a poor person in this economy
Who says this is the whole point? It’s an interpretation by a few people – and perhaps a projection? They have no platform or single voice (yet?), and the demands that they’ve posted are a joke (Free education for everybody!!)
There’s a split in the middle class that OWS doesn’t acknowledge. There are those among us who strive for more based upon our own steam. We look further ahead, we are proactive rather than reactive, and we do what we need to do INDIVIDUALLY to succeed, even if that means failing a few times and losing it all to get there, which is often far more what others are prepared to do. We don’t think we’re “owed” a job longer than the two week paycheck we’ve just received, or “deserve” a house, or are “entitled” to education.
On things like health care, tax reform, red tape, security, etc. there are common grounds amongst OWS and this segment of the middle class but on entitlement issues, there aren’t any.
There’s hypocrisy inside the Occupy movement in the same way there’s hypocrisy inside the Tea Party movement where there are people living on unemployment and social assistance. It got heavily ridiculed in the media, but for some reason Occupy’s hypocrisy and “looniness” is off-limits.
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November 7, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist ,
” Congratulations on learning the cut and paste function. ”
I am a terrible typist and copy and paste has worked well for me over the years. I am sensitive to criticism, and if I valued your opinion of me I would be very hurt . I said before that I do not like wordiness in the people I am debating . You and yours make far too many points of argument. So I pick out those sentences that interest me, paste them in and respond . I’m sorry that does not match your rhythm of conversation .
” In the original post, I was not. Being critical of what a person says does NOT necessarily mean being insulting. In the ignorance is strength post I did not attack USD, it was his arguments that I criticized. ”
Our egos , even yours, are wrapped up in our beliefs . We put our beliefs into our arguments . Attack the argument, you attack the belief. Attack the belief, you attack the ego . Attack the ego, you most certainly are attacking the person . And you are not tactful in your attacks . Your arguments, in my opinion are not constructed to persuade someone to convert to your point of view . You use ridicule liberally . Your words, I am sure play well with those already in your camp. I know your techniques because I use them myself .
” Do you ever read your own propaganda ? ”
” Seeing what you wrote in this post, I do think the question would apply to you as well. ”
Guilty as charged . I know how vicious I am. I do not lie to myself about it .
” The point was that to ARGUE you need to RESPOND TO THE ARGUMENT, not the tone, not your feelings, not what you think the person meant, but actually what was said. ”
I disagree. Tone is very important . I hadn’t consciously thought about it much until you articulated it, but it is amazing how much tone comes through even in the written word . I have been in groups of people, suddenly turning against a speaker. Later that person will say to me, ” what did I do, all I said was “. My response is, ” it’s not what you said, it was the way you said it, your tone of voice, your choice of words . ”
Your friends will not not tell you but your enemies will. Ridicule and sarcasm permeate your postings . I seriously doubt anything you say could change USD’s mind, but if you want to at least meet halfway on something, you have to recognize that tone and emotion are in play .
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November 8, 2011 at 10:32 am
renetascian
Your arguments are still devoid of substance while attacking only the tone. You are attempting to undermine his argument with accusations against tone in his article, which dodges the issue entirely. This is Arbourist’s blog, and he is entitled to whatever opinion or tone he so chooses. From appearance you are attempting to undermine his credibility while bolstering yours by accusing the tone and demeanor of his commentary (which is a subversive tactic), while playing “good cop” in yours. In that case, tone derives an intent to sidetrack the debate because it is a result of the way in which you are trying to discredit him. Atheist have very real reason to discredit the rantings of the religious, though arguably his comments adds little to the point of the blog. Your arguments are invalid, not because you are disliked, but because they are coming from a position demonstrably ignorant of the real issues at hand. We have valid reason to protest the influence of ignorant religious mentalities within politics and of anything that unfairly undermines our livelihoods.
However, within the “religious movements” there is a tendency of ignorance, especially those issues that lie outside the the miasma of their doctrine. Additionally, victim play, scapegoating, and sensationalism also play a role in conservative political tactics, which is mentioned within the context of this blog. I know you have good conscience to defend the religious point of view which Arb makes potshots at, but you are defending the indefensible. The Right Wing is against Gay Rights not because of a logical argument that stands on it’s own, or because of the science on the matter, but because of the mythology and dogma of Judea-Christianity which openly denies fact which differs from it’s opinion and dogma. It is against taxation because of the association of socialized systems with communism and state imposed atheism which are completely unrelated but demonized by the establishment for no good reason. Arb’s commentary on USD’s blog accurately demonstrates the phenomenon in which Christian Conservatives demonize all forms of thought perceived as a threat or contrary to their specific dogma. To say, it’s not only a bad idea, but evil makes a false assertion for the propagation of the religion, as such is propaganda. As atheists we realize this folly, and point it out and speak out against it, sometimes vehemently.
I’d say most of us don’t say that God doesn’t exist, but that we can’t prove that he does, and criticize the “supposed” proofs as the vomit that they are lacking substance and being full of logical fallacies which could be used to prove anything if accepted as fact on such bases. However, you conclusively display an inability to address the debate when your values are challenged by the speaker without redressed the point and remain ignorant to the true issues in traditional religious conservative style. You sound like a parrot to us, because we evaluated the things you claim prior to your statement and through evidence and fact know them to be false. We know that what you are saying it just jargon spewed by those groups and your demonstrated failure to understand the concepts gives us more evidence to believe that you lack credibility or are just repeating what you are told on it. You in your own language, demeanor and tone give us reason to believe you are simply parroting the party line, rather than speaking from a position of thorough analysis, and knowledge. Atheists don’t hate the religious, but are thoroughly disquieted when their non-sense interferes with their way of life, or threatens to, just as you would if we attempt to ban you practicing religion, or repress your rights because of it.
Plain and simple, if you believe God empowers you with righteousness, we believe you are delusional, just as you’d believe of us if we told you Zeus was empowering us with righteousness. We want equal rights, and the right to be free, you want us to be like you, (at threat of force if necessary according to some of you). See the difference? We don’t want to see our nations or progress stifled by non-scientific, unprovable, absolutist mythology which don’t belong involved in government and for good reason, so we aren’t against this… We don’t want a theocracy, nor do we want religious people who are purposefully ignorant of moral decency because of faith in bronze age ideology influencing political policy. We have a right to protest that which we assert is contrary to reason and logic, and dismiss the nonsense of those who espouse it. We don’t hate you, just hate that you come into our lives and tell us how to live or attempt to dehumanize us to facilitate discrimination. We are just trying to keep your kind from stomping us into the mud like the crusades did. Keep your religion to yourself, thank you very much. We don’t want, nor need it and we have the right to keep it that way. We aren’t speaking of beliefs when we talk, but of the facts to which we draw logical and reasonable conclusions.
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November 9, 2011 at 10:02 am
The Arbourist
Arb:This act huge, and our discussing it here is a testament to the power of what OWS has done.
VRK:Matter of perspective, I guess.
It must be, because changing the national dialogue is significant. Before OWS the focus was solely on the deficit, now that has changed. Discussing the massive wealth transfer that started in the 70’s and the inequality present in society is a good thing and people becoming more aware of their situation is a good thing.
Haha! You give WikiLeaks major credit for that?
I do. The source cited in the comment supports that position.
From the Amnesty view, perhaps. There were dozens of far more serious factors than words on a page that were surely more serious instigators. You know, little “blips” like lack of food, human rights violations, and other staples of brutal dictatorships.
You missed the part where said dictatorships and misery are supported by the US and western powers. Economic ‘stability’ comes at a high price for the inhabitants of those countries.
But sure, let’s believe in the left-wing bubble that some pieces of paper from a molester trumped all that. If Assange was so effective, why’s Manning still in jail then?
The documents in question were enough for the populaces of the Arab Spring uprising to make the connection between their leaders and the US. Fantastic use of an ad hom by the way when it comes to Mr. Assange, his status as an accused rapist in no way relates to the cables released by wiki leaks, but attempting to link the negative connotation of Mr. Assange’s personal life with the documents released by wikileaks is poor form. Why wouldn’t Manning still be in jail? This is a non sequitur – He was caught leaking official state/military documents that is still a crime. His conscience should be clear though, as it was the right thing to do.
No, you’re not a spokesperson but you’re a glorifier of them in way that tries to say that this so-called “powerful movement” is powerless to hold any responsibility for the crimes that occur in their name and on their watch. It’s a glorified view that to exist needs to trivialize, minimize, or outright ignore the crimes that are occurring daily within the movement to keep its own special brand of kool-aid as sweet and as “rah rah” worthy as can be throughout the campaign.
I’m betting similar commentary can be found in the papers of Montgomery Alabama, when the bus strikes were being organized. How dare these people break the rules of common decency. How dare they flaunt the law. Anything really to not hear the message and marginalize the movement.
I think if these crimes occurred anywhere unassociated with the OWS movement you’d be all over them. Your defense that you’re not a spokesperson for the group is, in my opinion, a cop out.
What? Crimes happening when a large numbers of people come together? How could that be happening, outrageous. I totally see your point.
How about simply speaking out for the women who were assaulted, and giving OWS even a little criticism for not having more of their $hit together, even if it’s tough love?
This is just one blog Vern, on a very large internet. Try here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Blog/display/id=56/comments=show/…. etc. Most of the above are critical and aware of the some of the issues you raise.
Let’s just recall what you said… “VRK: For bull$hit, loser reasons people on the left find this impossible to do.” So, because you seem unable to find sources “on the left” that deal with the issues, its obvious (to you) that they are not being dealt with. Despite the fact that I am a teacher Vern, it is not my job to educate you on how to search for news, or how to back up your specious opinions with something resembling fact. I suggest before you start accusing me of “coping out” I suggest you do some of your own homework (the link farm in the previous paragraph is a great place to start) and invest some time in a little intellectual honesty, as opposed to the misplaced indignation and bombast within your comments.
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November 9, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Vern R. Kaine
Arb,
Couldn’t see a “reply” link under your comment so hopefully this winds up in the right place.
Before OWS the focus was solely on the deficit, now that has changed… people becoming more aware of their situation is a good thing.
Apart from the blogs, I don’t see where this dialogue is really occurring as far as the general public is concerned. I see the media trying to figure out the “why” of the movement and stating the frustrations, and perhaps bringing up stats on wage disparity, but who’s really talking solutions to this outside of the blogs? The general public was already seeing in the news for years how much executives on Wall Street were making, and all one had to do was ask their five closest friends if that frustrated them and one was sure to get 5 yes’s. Are the protests, then, to show the extent of the frustration (anger)? Either way, I still consider this to be maybe a 5 on the awareness scale, and a 1/10 on the “Monumental Achievement and Awareness” scale.
What? Crimes happening when a large numbers of people come together? How could that be happening, outrageous. I totally see your point.
I doubt you do because again, you still can’t be honest and say that the crimes are despicable. For what, fear of tainting the romanticism of the movement? Your comment is a convenient generalization. The truth is that crimes this frequent happen when large numbers of LOSERS come together as has happened with Occupy, because without any real leadership a “part freeloader, part activist” movement will attract that very kind of loser. The Tea Party was able to keep the neo-Nazi losers in check even if they were in attendance, and the cops never once had to break out the batons.
So, because you seem unable to find sources “on the left” that deal with the issues, its obvious (to you) that they are not being dealt with
No, Arb, it’s obvious for the simple reason that after two months, it keeps happening. And when it could have been prevented from the very start, it’s equally obvious that “awareness” and “bitching” within Occupy holds a higher priority than safety. Heaven forbid a few rapes or drug overdoses distract people away from the cause.
Re: the links, thanks for the steer. I will take a look at them because all I’ve seen on the left-leaning blogs is the “where our cause is concerned, crime doesn’t matter”-type b.s. you see me so belligerently critical of. I’d honestly prefer to be more respectful of the movement even if I disagreed with a significant part of its message.
“Despite the fact that I am a teacher Vern, it is not my job to educate you on how to search for news, or how to back up your specious opinions with something resembling fact”. You’re just as selective with your facts and sources as I am, Arb, but at least I can dish out harsh criticisms towards those people or institutions I would otherwise normally support for actions that are real, despicable, and happen in plain sight of everyone. I don’t need to go find some academic study somewhere to back up the claim that Occupy protesters prefer to throw feces and blood at street vendors who’ve cut them off from free food, but apparently you demand that be a prerequisite to any opinion in order for that opinion to be favorable to your academic sensitivities. Hate to break it to you, but there’s a whole world that happens out there before someone writes a paper or blog post on it. There’s damage that actually costs real money and there’s real harm that Occupy is actually causing at the moment that some academic or philosophical wand can’t distract from or magically just make disappear.
I will quickly, gladly, and fully criticize anyone for their actions no matter what side of my opinion their actions happen to fall upon, but from what I’ve seen on here, you never do, and you seriously want to accuse me of being specious or dishonest? Please. If you’ve decided it’s not your job or you simply can’t acknowledge the shortcomings or consequences of your worldviews, fine, but that doesn’t win you the “intellectual honesty” title any more than it would for me or anyone else.
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November 9, 2011 at 8:55 pm
Alan Scott
renetascian,
Is it possible for you to respond in a more concise manner ? I read your response and I’m bored to death before I get 1/3rd through it. But using my copy and paste method, which your compadre Arbourist hates, I will answer some of it .
” Your arguments are still devoid of substance while attacking only the tone.”
I really was trying to be helpful to the Arbourist. He obviously wants to make progress towards his goal of convincing religious people such as me , or more importantly UsneakydevilU that religion is destructive and there is no God .
No matter how brilliant and right the Arbourist”s arguments are, they do not appear to work on anyone who is not already an Atheist . Logically we non-Atheists must not be on the high intelligence level you guys have achieved .
” This is Arbourist’s blog, and he is entitled to whatever opinion or tone he so chooses. ”
Yea, I got that.
” From appearance you are attempting to undermine his credibility while bolstering yours by accusing the tone and demeanor of his commentary (which is a subversive tactic), while playing “good cop” in yours. ”
What do you object to ? I hold an opposite viewpoint than you guys. Of course I want to subvert.
” We have valid reason to protest the influence of ignorant religious mentalities within politics and of anything that unfairly undermines our livelihoods. ”
I agree you have reason and right to protest what you dislike. I have reason and right to oppose everything you stand for . I would ask what you mean by your livelihoods being undermined?
” You in your own language, demeanor and tone give us reason to believe you are simply parroting the party line, rather than speaking from a position of thorough analysis, and knowledge. ”
If I agree with the ” party line “, why wouldn’t I use it in my arguments?
” Atheists don’t hate the religious, but are thoroughly disquieted when their non-sense interferes with their way of life, or threatens to, just as you would if we attempt to ban you practicing religion, or repress your rights because of it. ”
I guess in your sophisticated Atheistic manner , you are saying that it is okay to practice my dark, mysterious religious rituals behind closed doors , but do not bring those values into public venues or I will face your wrath?
” We don’t want a theocracy, nor do we want religious people who are purposefully ignorant of moral decency because of faith in bronze age ideology influencing political policy. ”
Moral decency, interesting phraseology . Just as you can find lapses in bronze age moral decency, it is pretty easy for me to find lapses in 21st century moral decency .
” We are just trying to keep your kind from stomping us into the mud like the crusades did. ”
What are you a Muslim, that you use their favorite phrase ?
” Keep your religion to yourself, thank you very much. ”
Very well, and keep your Atheism to yourself .
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November 9, 2011 at 9:04 pm
The Arbourist
But using my copy and paste method, which your compadre Arbourist hates, I will answer some of it .
I don’t hate the method Mr.Scott, just when it is used for ‘evil’ Alan. But I encourage you to continue with the method as it makes it easier to follow what you are responding to.
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November 10, 2011 at 10:04 am
The Arbourist
AS: ” Your arguments are still devoid of substance while attacking only the tone.”
I really was trying to be helpful to the Arbourist. He obviously wants to make progress towards his goal of convincing religious people such as me , or more importantly UsneakydevilU that religion is destructive and there is no God .
I’m not sure that convincing religious people is really my goal Mr.Scott. Religion, like choice of political party, or favourite ice cream flavour are all choices learned and reinforced over a long period of time. Simply changing you from a strawberry ice cream guy to one who loves chocolate is a difficult task with a high probability of failure. It would be nice if it happened, but sincerely, I doubt I could change yours or anyone’s mind on such issues. I think that raising awareness about alternate modes of thinking and being, or simply letting people question their beliefs is victory enough.
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November 10, 2011 at 4:36 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist ,
” I don’t hate the method Mr.Scott, just when it is used for ‘evil’ Alan. But I encourage you to continue with the method as it makes it easier to follow what you are responding to. ”
Thank you.
” I think that raising awareness about alternate modes of thinking and being, or simply letting people question their beliefs is victory enough. ”
It works both ways.
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November 10, 2011 at 5:38 pm
Reneta Scian
Attacking tone, while ignoring the validity argument with the expressed intention of discrediting the author is dishonest, malodorous behavior. I deplore it. Mind you, honey attracts more bees than vinegar; however, being sweet and amicable to your opponent sometimes only conveys weakness or unsureness not compassion for your cause. Atheism doesn’t have a gimmick, or trickery to attract you, you have to genuinely seek the truth to find it. However, being impervious to reason, and facts is not a virtue any more than faith. It is a profound failure to learn.

Subversion isn’t something to be proud of, though I appreciate your honesty. Discrediting something with reasonable conclusions and facts though, is admirable, honest and noble. It isn’t my belief that these things are such, but reasonable to conclude such from understanding of honesty among other things.
You have reason to complain if someone infringes on your right to practice your form of religion, but not the right to make law out of said religion infringing upon the right of another. Our freedoms, and livelihoods are affected by the laws religious conservatives lobby to pass, or by the ones they ignorantly overlook, or when they are forcing their morality on us. Whether it’s a non-religious or a religious person, it’s still discrimination. Justice is naught without fairness. Our country was founded on the principle of individual rights, that the majority shall not have sway over the rights of the individual. Law makes exceptions for those who are exceptional in the spirit of fairness, like the disabled. Fairness considers the condition of each person, and for things that do not cause intrinsic harm, it is not meant to be subject to a majority vote. Order, and not conformity is the purpose of government; however, theocratic (Judea-Christian) principles often demand conformity with force, even death.
Because the “party line” adds nothing to the argument. Refute the position with facts, because it’s about about the facts and reasonable conclusions drawn from them not feelings and beliefs. Beliefs have no sway over reality. It dodges the point of the blog, and is dishonest as I mentioned before.
Bringing your beliefs into the public arena is your choice, our right to be free from being subject to them, however, is non-negotiable. You could practice voodoo for all I care, but you can’t make me practice it too, nor should you have the power to make law out of your voodoo either. And yes, you’ll face my wrath if you try to make laws that impose your religiously guided ideas of moral on me, especially when they contradict reality, moral decency, and fairness. This doesn’t say that you, per say, have infringed upon my rights yourself, but you support people who do.
Morality evolves as the race evolves. We learned that hurting animals is wrong because of scientific evidence proved they feel pain, and don’t “work like clockwork”. Morality, nor science always gets it right the first time. But unlike religious dogma, science is always skeptically challenged and rechallenged to give us the best possible answer to the question given our available resources. Dogma tries to stand like an inscrutable pillar that demands an abdication of reason, and the methods that give us honest, but sometimes incomplete answers. Would you use the morality of a mass murdering philanthropist as a guide to live your life by? Their good deeds and charity would never compensate for the harm they had caused, nor should you base your life model off of their morality. Biblical morality is indefensible. We have valid reason to assert certain behaviors are moral without religious dogma.
Lastly, I can’t comply with your request. I will be vocal about my position because I have reason to assert it is valid, and reason to believe if I am not vocal I will not have equal rights. I respect your right to practice your religion, but reject attempts to force me to adhere to its tenants as well. It isn’t your right to exist in a world absent of atheists, GLBT people, Jews, Muslims, et cetera (add any other group your religion is against). It isn’t your right to impose your world view on others, nor is it your right to infringe upon the rights of others because of that view. You have only the right to do as you do, but that right stops at the tips of your fingers, nose and toes. No one has rights over another.
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June 12, 2012 at 7:42 am
Arlene LaHera
America’s founders, religious and atheist alike wisely provided a clear distinction and separation of Church and State. Conversely churches should not become political – Christianity has not changed.
I think fundamentalist Christians practicing from the OT are Abrahamic and fundamentally no different than a Muslim or a Jew, not that there is anything “wrong” in practicing either of those religious faiths.
Jesus ushered in a NEW COVENANT. He brought a new and improved rendering of moral obligations and was born to be a living model for the faith. To be “Christian” means being a testament to HIS life. We are all participating in a common journey toward death and potential reunion with a creator, some call God. Through this dogma and faith, (presumably and according to theory) our present plane of existence CAN be enhanced through a greater understanding, fine tuning and connectedness to the Cosmos (i.e. God) through the Holy Spirit.
Science has confirmed mufti-dimensional possibilities of life and so I am open to the supernatural aspects myself.
Continuing…This association is also fostered though a fellowship that honors, protects and cares for all natural life and fellow man – atheist or not, joyfully, patiently and with the greatest LOVE, as Christ did.
When in doubt over a question, like health care or criminal rehabilitation or feeding the poor, always look to find a result that includes mercy, patience and love.
Many people who call themselves “Christian” know nothing of Jesus – the reason for the Creed. Though not the inspiration itself, Christ offered a bright and guiding light for framers of the US Constitution and why people keep dragging Him back into politics today.
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