Hypocrisy is flowing from the anti-choice sites like turds from a overfull diaper. The idea that they are somehow committed to the preservation of life is the weapons-grade bullshite that religious thinking actively promotes. The pious f*cks are equating abortion to the recent mass murder at Sandyhook Elementary School.
How dare you?
You (fetus fetishists) purport to have moral standards and then crassly use the murder of children to further your own anti-woman agenda. I’m certainly glad that religion is such a fine moral compass and guide for behaving as a caring empathetic, human beings.
An image repost, but hey its still amazingly relevant.
So stop, just stop with the “what about the baaaaby” whinging and try to clear your addled cotton-filled heads for one microsecond. Promote your toxic anti-female agenda – go to town (usually church) – awesome, we need exemplars to show how incredibly wrong you are.
But don’t use the deaths of innocent people to enhance(?) your attack on women. It is gross and disgusting.
This post magically disappeared. Looks like someone has a shred of decency.
bleatmop
Mystro
Dead Wild Roses 
51 comments
December 15, 2012 at 11:28 am
myatheistlife
This is an awesome post. You’ve captured my anger quite well.
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December 15, 2012 at 11:30 am
myatheistlife
Reblogged this on myatheistlife and commented:
If you have not been over to Dead Wild Roses, read this reblog then get on over there. I think I’m going to start keeping a list of bloggers I’d like to have a beer with and it strikes me with this post that DWR is going on that list. It’s amazing how it only takes one tragedy to find out who are the gormless idiots around us.
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December 15, 2012 at 11:35 am
The Arbourist
I can usually stomach the corrosive hate that emanates from anti-choice land, but sometimes they cross a line.
Tell me again why I look at the abortion tag in the WP reader…*sigh*
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December 15, 2012 at 11:41 am
john zande
This shit makes me furious.
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December 15, 2012 at 11:45 am
The Arbourist
One gets used to the usual banal feckless argumentation, but with crap like this, from the side that purports to be all morally and ethically sound…its just a little much.
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December 15, 2012 at 11:47 am
john zande
Agreed. This is an email sent to a FB page i follow, Global Secular Humanist Movement.
Email from Kristin/Virginia
“You and people like you are responsible for the shootings that happened in Connecticut school, you took GOD away from our schools and now he is not there to help us. Please God have mercy on America.”
Tell me that’s not insanity. Is this god Kristin refers to that fragile, that useless, that impotent?
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December 15, 2012 at 11:54 am
The Arbourist
@John Zande
Like god gives a flying-frak about any human affairs. He sentences 29,000 children to die everyday just for shitz and giggles. I’m not seeing a lot of anti-choice organizing on eradicating preventable diseases that are killing actual children.
If, there is a god, which I highly doubt I hope to hell it isn’t the christian one because he’s one cold psychotically misanthropic dude.
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December 15, 2012 at 1:23 pm
bleatmop
Are we surprised? I mean the scum of the earth will always use these events to promote their unrelated ideologies. Anyone who does that is pure trash. The only discussions about this is the tragedy and pain of the family and how to make sure it never happens again. Anything else is using the shock doctrine in its most evil form.
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December 15, 2012 at 1:47 pm
witchylisa
By God, you’re addictive <3
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December 15, 2012 at 6:40 pm
Reneta Scian
It’s amazing how the truly misanthropic among us fellow human beings can use the death of another as a political device. These are the behaviors or psychopaths, not those of human beings… What to know what is ironic about that… The kind of lack of empathy, and ability to think rationally about human life is a trait only shared by psychopaths and the religious. Certainly, there are other logical fallacies at play with the religious attitudes about life. Like how they care about the “unborn children” but don’t bat an eye when other people are killed. This kind of attitude of pro-life advocates is more than just disturbing, and misanthropic, it’s downright psychotic. Anytime you weigh the value of one human life but depreciate the value of another, you are doing little more than proving your inhumanity and hypocrisy. At least that is what I think. And no, I guess I am not surprised. Should we be?
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December 16, 2012 at 3:06 pm
The Arbourist
@Reneta
Too many to enumerate here. :)
At least this particular group of fine individuals. I’m cautious when generalizing though, sometimes you do find someone who is pro-life and actually walks the walk. They are anti-war, anti-poverty and pro-health care and pro-socialized democracy. It is exceedingly rare though and I do agree with you that most, once the child is born lose interest in the process and certainly do not want to help pay for raising a properly socialized human being.
“Always, never, every, only.” These are words to be used with caution as they tend to foster conversation toward being overtly polemical and prone to generalizations. It also makes what you say easier to refute. For instance, I weigh the value of my Mother’s life more than a stranger off the street; I guarantee I will be completely biased in making a life of death decision between them. Is that being inhumane? Hypocritical?
I agree with you that the pro-life calculus used in determining the rights of the fetus is completely flawed. I rally against the erasure of the the birth mother from that equation, it is detrimental to the health and standing of women.
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December 16, 2012 at 3:11 pm
The Arbourist
@Bleatmop
The best part is that in a follow up post, rather than retract or try to explain their horrible position, the decide to go into the semantics of chickens and eggs.
There is another post brewing about this, feel free to jump in with your own as there is plenty of fail to deconstruct. :)
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December 17, 2012 at 12:32 am
Reneta Scian
@ Arbourist – Good points on all, and I’ll be mindful about statements prone to generalization in those regards. I don’t like generalization myself, but sometimes it happens, I guess. There is a very insidious notion inside of the “anti-choice” mentality, and it permeates society (Westernized Culture). It exists law, and psychiatry practices in normalization (and why Anti-Psychiatry exists). In infects the nature of social contracts, and affects the autonomy of individuals in ways that go beyond womens reproductive rights. And that is the belief that an agent (individual, group, government, religion) has any right to control the actions of another individual, to control the purposes of their lives, or of the functions and use of their bodies.
This nature is apparent in the treatment of transgender individuals, the access to reproductive healthcare for women, access to healthcare in general, same-sex marriage, and historically in many other “similar situations” were rights or access were denied on the basis of the opinion of a “source of power”. And what does it all have in common? Power… Control… Much of this, throughout the generations, has been fueled by religion, followed closely by apotheosized leaders who abuse their powers in the absence or usurping of an identified religion. My relationship with religion has been a quite personal one in recent years. Possibly why I have become anti-religion, (or more than likely).
And that is where it gets scary to me… And that is that people believe that a fictitious entity granted them the “authority” to control the lives of others. And that it’s made into a sacred belief to them, at which point they become incapable of challenging it even in the event of moral ambiguity. They then become complicit in the control of others, and in their harm. Some of my own friends and family members have were complicit, sometimes participatory, and unapologetic in causing me harm, simply because their beliefs demanded it. People can experience harm as a result of the irresponsible, and unnecessary use of power, or in the discriminatory exercise of policy guided by beliefs that are detached from reality (usually demonstrated through evidence). And that they did so intentionally, because there beliefs demand it, their fictitious leader authorizes it, and that makes it okay to harm others.
This applies to many issues, to include women’s reproductive rights and many others I didn’t mention. In the process of thinking more about this post I can’t to realize why I feel the way I do about some of these issues. Because outside of preventing harm to others, I don’t think a society, a government and much less an individual has the right to excise power against another. I feel there is good reason to see the improper, unnecessary, and excessive use of power or force as harmful. So it does alarm me. The entire process of belief, and other semantics that can and does lead to someone being complicit in the harm of others, whether they participate or not, deeply concerns me wherever it exists . That is the idea that influence my comment, and a lot of things I discuss and think about, which I was previously not speaking to directly.
My experiences, evidence, and other information has led to me seeing arguments from religion as “arguments from power/control”, positions from those who claim authority on behalf of a leader who doesn’t, won’t, or can’t produce valid reasons, evidence, or even its own presence to support said authority, or reasoning. To me, anti-choice arguments are roughly logically equivalent of saying, I prohibit you from doing X (insert idea as X) because my imaginary friend told me to. And there is nothing is more terrifying, in my opinion.
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December 17, 2012 at 12:35 am
Reneta Scian
Correction: “the belief that an agent (individual, group, government, religion) has any right to control the actions of another individual, to control the purposes of their lives, or of the functions and use of their bodies” against their will, for no reason, moral purpose, or need to prevent harm.
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December 17, 2012 at 11:09 am
The Arbourist
@Reneta
I still do it too. No worries. :)
Well said. Independent critical thought and analysis is scary, time consuming and often unrewarding – why bother when (X) makes it so easy.
It is like the “goddidit” religious arguments when it comes to science. Irrational, zany shite that functions as an enabler for people to do and say stupid things.
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December 17, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Allen
Yeah, you are all hypocrites, you all turned pro-life last friday, when in 6 months you’ll be defending pro-choice, guess what it was the shooters CHOICE to walk in that school and kill those INNOCENT kids. Let’s compare apples to apples, they are INNOCENT life, none of ya’ll give to shits about the 750,000 abortions every year, you people make me sick and I hope you all wake up one day. You can’t claim to care so much about life in a time of crisis and then not give a shyt about it later. You all make me sick, bunch of dumb as ses.
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December 17, 2012 at 5:37 pm
The Arbourist
@Allen
Wow, continuing to use the murder of school children to make your point? Fantastic.
Only to the extent that they are safe and accessible to women.
Did you forget your altar? Its hard to properly worship the one’s fetus fetish without it.
Did you notice that those were actual children? Just sayn’ But of course I know you celebrate conception days instead of birthdays too.
The amount of hate for women by your side is also appalling, so at least we share one quality in common.
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December 17, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Allen
I didn’t say anything about women you idiot…..what is your deal with calling people women haters…it has nothing to do with women,…. again you care so much about the woman’s life but don’t care about the one in the womb…do I have to state the obvious again…you’re a dumb ass
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December 17, 2012 at 7:16 pm
R. Fowler
the hypocrisy of the atheist is the he/she applies value to life at all. the fallacy of their argument is shown in the recent development of lawmakers in the US actually suggesting that newborn babies should not be considered persons for 3 days after birth and the parents should be allowed, not to put it up for adoption, but to have it killed. it’s just a matter of choice right?
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December 17, 2012 at 9:31 pm
Reneta Scian
Religious Ideals have no place in a modern moral society. Why? Because they are antiquated at best, downright morally atrocious at worst. Want to see “real hypocrisy”? Go in to a church where they condemn homosexuals, but ignore all other passages within those same chapters, and sections of the bible. The Judea-Christians of modern times “cherry pick” what morality they want to uphold as though it were based on the minority status of the groups in question, and their ability to enforce it, or at least they have tended to do so in America. Mormonism is a perfect example of this delusional mindset. You may decry it, but it originated because of Judea-Christianity, which means it’s inextricable from the moral baggage of Christianity. The Bible is morally reprehensible from cover to cover, and just like we don’t use the morality of a occasionally philanthropic psycho murderer, we shouldn’t use the morality of the bible (or any religion supported by unsubstantiated, ambiguous moral guidance reminiscent of The Holy Bible).
A zygote/undeveloped fetus is not a “person” anymore than a peanut is “a peanut plant”. Anything, and I mean anything, that goes on in a woman’s body, up until it becomes a life capable of being entirely separate of her, is still her choice. Pro-life versions of “choice” involve little choice, if any at all. And adoption? In a system saturated by children no one wants, in a world without sufficient resources to take care of them!? Smart family planning is the best bet (which is demonstrable) if we are to maintain order, have a strong and moral society. The blanket bans against women’s rights to contraceptives, abortion, and other reproductive healthcare lead to poverty, unnecessary death, and can lead to the bankruptcy of societies, and the spread of diseases that wipe out civilizations. Bad plan, plain and simple. Women weren’t put on this Earth to crank out babies for the powers that be, and until that potential child is an autonomous being, it’s not a life.
How is it that valuing life as an atheist is hypocritical? You have no evidence, and absolutely no proof of this, not to mention sizable amounts of evidence that demonstrate this isn’t the case. And if it were true that atheists don’t value life, then why are the vast majority of violent murders religious theists? Atheists make up less than 1% of criminals. Your comment about some “supposed law” that considers a child being “able to be aborted” for 3 days is anecdotal to the point. Even if someone did feel that way, that isn’t the position of most atheists, certainly not mine. That a life that doesn’t exist yet is more valuable than a life already in this world, to me, is quite morally reprehensible. The problems, like the need for abortion, et cetera are created by religiously motivated mentalities towards womens rights to the “own bodies”. Because, it’s not your body, it’s not your right. End of story. You can make up things to support your case until you’re blue in the face, but you can’t prove that you are right.
Myth-buster –
Atheists can value life, many can sometimes value it more than theist because of a scientifically driven understanding of just how precious and fragile life is in the cosmos. Also, some people that are “considered atheists” are actually pantheists.
Most Atheists have moral values, and scientifically speaking can find moral values that are more accurately reflect in reality (like much of scientific facts tested and proven).
Theists (especially the devout/deluded kind) have to view Atheists as “inhuman, immoral, murderers, rapists, et cetera”, and the like of morally negative things. Because to acknowledge that Atheists have morality without God has the potential to shake the foundations of their internally inconsistent or contradictory set of beliefs. It’s called Demonization, and Dehumanization because so long as you can devalue the lives of atheists, you can continue to support beliefs against them, to see their deaths as “good things” and circumvent moral accountability for the harm, nastiness, and hate directed at them. It’s Discrimination, plain and simple, but the religious are morally detached from what is so morally reprehensible about it. Ignorance of moral wrong doesn’t make it right.
Theists can and do fear Atheists because of ignorance of what it means to be an “Atheist”. There are Atheists who do morally wrong acts, just as their are Christians who do morally wrong acts. Their are Atheists who do morally correct acts, just as their are Christians who do morally correct acts. The linkage between Theism being “inherently moral” and Atheism being “inherently immoral” is a fallacy created by the early founders of the church. It’s a fallacy because it doesn’t reflect reality, truth, or the facts, as is true with all fallacies. A failure to codify this as such would have led to a collapse of the Church, and therein of their power. They like their power, trust me on that, and they’ll do whatever they can to hold it. Religion is so far as Judea-Christianity is concerned is Power, a system of control. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bill Gates, is an Atheist Philanthropist. He is “one of many” Atheist Philanthropists, and atheist philanthropists are also numerable among the top known. Any moral generalizations you’re trying to make about Atheists are invalid.
The Most Morally Equitable Nations in the world (based on social equality, levels of violence, and violent crime, and overall quality of life and moral behavior), are nations which are predominantly atheistic. As Religiosity goes up, it causes immoral conduct and behavior, murders, violent deaths, and crime to also dramatically increase. It’s also followed closely by social inequality, injustice, and poor quality of life. This is a FACT.
—And there are many, many, many more myths—
Wake up and smell the science!!!. It reflects reality, it’s reproducible, it’s amazing, and it’s more than likely to really open your eyes, not give you a inferior opiate as substitute. It will show you a universe that is truly awe inspiring, and it will humble you as you have never been humbled before. Science is also a more reliable tool for determining morality in a non-subjective, non-morally relativistic sense.
And if you want to talk about “religious morality”, watch the below link –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbef07aQtB8
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December 17, 2012 at 10:27 pm
The Arbourist
@Allen
Hey thanks for adding so much to the argument. Bye now. :)
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December 19, 2012 at 10:59 am
Allen
When did this become an athiest vs religious thing? a fetus develops a heartbeat 3 weeks after conception. I was pointing out the fact that so many abortions are happening and are actually promoted by programs such as planned parenthood. They tell these young ladies, “oh, your too young to have a child, you don’t deserve this, you should abort the pregnancy.” Since when did it become so convenient to MURDER a life just BECAUSE.
I am a Christian and have battled many athiest over the past few months about creationism v evolution. Are any of you seriously suggesting that 750,000 babies aborted per year in the US are due to incest or rape? Come on, where the problem comes in is that I also pay taxes and don’t want my money going to a woman who tells a young teenage girl that she is a victim, there are ways to prevent getting pregnant. But hey, it’s all part of do what you want, take no responsibility later right?
As far as the athiesm goes, just ask any of them how we came to be….you’ll get the same beginning answer, “Well, the big bang happened and then life came from algae in a pond.” Yeah not even scientist could re-create this in a controlled environment. We can understand the laws of science but have no evidence of why they are the way they are or how they came to be…..there had to be intelligent design for this to happen. In scientific study, and yes there are this many zero’s it would have to have been a 1 in 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 chance that two rocks smashed together and then created life……yeah didn’t happen. What is probably the most troubling to Christians about athiest is that the athiest always talk about how we look at something someone wrote down many years ago and that it is all faith based. I would argue that athiest claims are also faith based from a scientists ‘best guess’ as to how we came to be. Every life deserves a chance, for people to all of the sudden care about innocent life but think it’s cool to suck the brains out of babies head baffles me and shows selfishness and ignorance……
“The more I study science, the more I believe in God” -Albert Einstein
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December 19, 2012 at 11:01 am
Allen
@The Arbourist
Good point, I noticed you kept your mouth shut….good move. Bye Now.. :)
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December 19, 2012 at 12:09 pm
bj
Allen said: ” Are any of you seriously suggesting that 750,000 babies aborted per year in the US are due to incest or rape?”
So you think killing ‘babies’ is ok if they are the product of incest or rape?
—————
And lastly, and this is a generalization, but I still think it stands – many pro-lifers are also very right wing, and pro-gun. The whole ‘pro-freedom’ scthick we hear about over and over.
These people like to make the argument that ‘the embryo that was aborted could have grown up to cure cancer!!!!!!’
Well, the children that were killed in CT – any one of them could have grown up to cure cancer. So why aren’t you rightwing fucks out there railing against guns?
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December 19, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Allen
Because guns don’t kill people you moron, look at drugs, they’re illegal but people still use them, weird huh? You retarded piece of shit…..No if the mother’s life is in danger I don’t think any abortion should be permitted to elaborate on what you said. You left winged brain washed idiots think a law is going to stop murders just like illegal drugs stops drug use right? Maybe if people could actually have dinner with their families with facebook and actually find out where there kids are in life we could stop a lot of the violence….but you people keep telling yourself that a law will stop murders….you dumb ass idiots, your mentality is the down fall of America
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December 19, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Allen
You left wing dumb asses spend your whole life trying to tell kids that everything is supposed to be fair, that everyone gets a trophy for participating, that you can’t be better than somebody at something or your killing their self esteem, that people, although they may have no given talent in a specific field can do whatever they want. Then, when the real world bites them in the ass and they start to retaliate because left wing shits like you have promoted that life IS fair when we all know it ISN’T you want to make laws because of your own brainwashing techniques that didn’t work…liberals really are as stupid as we all thought, the funny part is, you couldn’t make it without conservatives, you feed off of their money and hard work to promote agendas that shouldn’t exist. People learn more through failure than they do success, ask any successful person and they will tell you that they had to fail many times before they became successful…..you retard
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December 19, 2012 at 5:35 pm
bj
You are funny Allen. Providing guns to any idiot results in it being easy to kill people, esp children. And guns are super easy to get. And children die every year to guns. Sooo, the logic would follow, fewer little kids will die if there is sufficient gun control.
And I did not waste my time on your hateful posts, it is just the ramblings of an arrogant moron.
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December 19, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Allen
ok bud bj, put gun control laws in, crime rates won’t be effected….wait and see….come back and concede when you realize that…..
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December 19, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Reneta Scian
Actually, the statistics when there is good gun control don’t pan out. That is what reality says. When you say “Realize” you are using the term in error. What your really mean, is that when you come to see things my way. But what you don’t realize is that reality begs to differ with your opinion. And yes, Guns do kill people, because people are irrational.
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December 19, 2012 at 6:01 pm
Allen
Guns don’t kill people, people kill people, last time I checked, no gun walked off the counter and shot anyone….you people are laughable in every manner, get out of your bubble and jump off the liberal spin cycle
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December 19, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Reneta Scian
Your anger is unacceptable, a reflection of your delusional immaturity. You haven’t listened, you don’t care, and you are willing to promote your agenda to the disadvantage of others rights. An extra heartbeat inside the body of another still doesn’t support your case, or make your point valid. Simply because something is growing inside her, doesn’t suddenly mean it’s not her choice because you care about it one way or the other. I have my own personal feelings about this but they are anecdotal to the point, or to the needs for women’s rights. This issue isn’t even about babies, or people, it’s about one group forcing their beliefs on another. And those 750,000 abortions a year that happen, do you know how many happened because of poor education about contraceptives (usually blocked by religious zealotry), limited access to or sometimes none at all, excessive expense or other policies the right wing agendas tend to endorse and enforce? Your position is detached from reality.
If women had affordable access to care they wouldn’t need abortions in the first place, and this is something they still have to fight for in some areas thanks to the Church and other ideologues playing God in politics which they have no right to dabble in. The US is a secular nation. Get this through you head. And no matter how you feel about the fetus in a woman’s womb it still doesn’t give you a right to control what she does with her body, period… End of story. That baby is part of her body, not yours, not mine. Stop caring so much about unborn fetuses that you are unable to look at the consequences of forcing women to bring life into this against their will. And keep in mind this… Some of us used to be Christians… And you know why I am not remotely “Pro-life” (though I wasn’t totally pro-life) AKA Anti-Choice anymore, and why I am not Christian? Because I educated myself, because I saw things as they were, rather than how I wanted to see them.
I looked at it critically, FOR MY SELF and for no one else and with my own critical though, and with the guidance of science, evidence and understanding of epistemology I learned how to think critically. And WHEN I did, I saw a world that had been hidden from my eyes for the sake of upholding a religious mentality about the world and it’s logical fallacies. I learned to think for myself, and found a world so much more nuanced, and wonderful than theology could paint it. I opened my eyes. You can’t cause harm to lives that already exist for the sake of one that could potentially exist. The supporting of bans against abortion is harmful to women, harmful to society, harmful to me, to you, to your mother, to your sisters, to every woman.
Because it says, BOLD-FACED, that you have rights over the bodies of women. The state of her body doesn’t equal a forfeiture of rights. You may claim the right, but it is unjust, unfair, immoral and inhumane to do so. You don’t have the right to control the purpose of the life of another, regardless of your beliefs. You may not agree with it… FINE. You don’t have to have an abortion. But you do not have that right over another, no one does, no matter how we feel about it. Simply because something has the potential to become an individual, doesn’t mean it is an individual. Furthermore, these policies hurt society in very direct measures, as anyone with the ability to read and do research would see. Countries with affordable and widespread access to women’s health, and reproductive care don’t have the same issues as countries that don’t.
My whole world view changed when I learned to think critically. You should learn that little lesson yourself. Keep your religion, to yourself. We don’t want it, nor do we want your religiously motivated ideals forced onto us, or onto any one of our bodies, or the bodies of the ones we love. We are as free to have no religion, and to not be affected by laws based on religion as you are free to practice it. I’d rather live in reality, not a deluded fantasy designed to make me feel good. The world would be fair if people saw reality, measured it, and took proper action accordingly. Religion fails that at every step of the process, because religion and reality (also know by the set of facts of the nature of the world as discovered by science) do not line up.
You think we are brain washed, because you yourself are indoctrinated into an ideology, and you believe our positions form a monolith. You cluster groups of people together based on the stereotypes you have been conditioned to accept. We don’t all think the same things, atheists, pro-choice, whatever. We are individuals. We think for ourselves. Each of us has a separate set of values. But because we look at evidence, they are relatively consistent more often than the beliefs of the religious. The religious in America are united by the term “Christian”, but they all have different beliefs. If they were all “the truth” as they all “claim” they are then we have a serious problem, because they all contradict. Judea-Christianity is also internally inconsistent, so this is expected. So why are a bunch of unaffiliated individuals all sharing “similar beliefs”? Because reality is consistent, therefore the beliefs of people who observe and measure reality will also be likewise consistent.
So Allen… stop getting angry, stomping your feet, and throwing insults like a child throwing a tantrum. Regardless of what you think, it’s not your right it’s each woman’s choice. Care about the women, care about the effect your actions and ideals have a real, existing individuals in this world rather than people who aren’t even in it yet, and stop being a childish about people not wanting to relinquish their autonomy for your beliefs. If there was evidence for your God or for the positions you presuppose, we’d follow your beliefs. But there isn’t. Therefore, we have science of and about reality to give us morality, to be “good without God”, and we see no reason to believe the winded rantings of your pastor, his followers, or their holy book that flies in the face of everything we have come to know through critical though, and through our efforts and accomplishments as a human race.
We aren’t just trying to just trying to “Kill Babies” (which technically, they aren’t yet). We are trying to respect the rights of the individual, and doing so outside of the anecdotal feelings we may, or may not have about it. We are trying to live with reality, to understand it and to do better. Banning abortion hurts real people, banning and failing to provide access to contraceptives hurts real people, and inhibiting the process around how people learn about these measures also hurts real people. People in this world right now, and the ones who may come into it in the future will be hurt by that. Failing to see that doesn’t undo that harm, nor excuse your part in it. My mother could have aborted me, but she didn’t, and if she did, it was her right because I was not alive yet then. While my “fetus” did give rise to me, it was not me and it was not a life, only a potential.
We don’t give greater importance to potentials and possibilities in a universe governed by realities when those realities effect things that aren’t only potentials at current, now do we? I could have died at many points, but I didn’t? If I spent my whole life wondering about the what ifs, I’d go insane. And just like I don’t worry about the billions of years where I wasn’t alive before I was born, I am not going to worry about lives that never happened, or people who never existed, or don’t yet exist; likewise, I’m not going to worry about the billions of years after I am no longer alive either, as it would be pointless. I observe reality, the here and now, because that is all I can do, and if I intend on staying in it what I must do. It’s impractical to care about something that may happen, more than about what is happening, or will happen as a consequence. Your energies and efforts trying to “Save Unborn People” is the concern troll of Pro-Life Arguments, and it makes you too eager to control the life of another simply because of a possibility. You should really come to grips with reality, it’s much better that way and it usually doesn’t involve the infringement of the rights, needs, and benefit of others. Pro-Life policy hurts real people, that’s what evidence says.
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December 19, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Reneta Scian
Guns are weapons designed to kill people, period. Furthermore, the use of guns, more so than any other weapon of death is more capable of circumventing a persons empathy by means of being far more “impersonal” than all others. Morally speaking, the possession of a gun makes most people more likely to be able to kill, and also feel less empathy for their victims. The sudden and abrupt death of firearms creates this logical break in feeling connected to the act of killing another human. It’s one of the most efficient impersonal weapons in existence, next the to the Lethal UAV, and the cheapest and through that is also most deadly of all human devices. Most humans are not sufficient rational, or empathic to perceive a death via firearm equally as a death via other methods.
Anyone in the armed services (now or formerly) who has ever killed anyone, or any person who has ever been in a situation where they used a firearm to kill will tell you how easy it is. Many will describe it as “too easy”. The testimony of a Marine Sniper is far more than sufficient evidence of this. When asked, what do you feel when you take down a target, one responded “Recoil”. It wasn’t a joke, he was dead serious. Firearms, are relatively clean, cool, and precise compared with other weapons. Bang, and the target is dead. Simple as that. While it may be people who are wielding the firearms, it’s the nature of firearms themselves that contributes to the deaths by them. Thus, yes… Guns to do kill people, and this is a rational position to hold. Furthermore, firearms ammunition contain volatile substances and are capable of killing in the absence of human intervention, but are designed to minimize that as much as possible because of that.
Do you even have a clue how many accidental deaths firearms cause? Obviously not.
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December 19, 2012 at 6:41 pm
Reneta Scian
To add, the physical distance which death may occur makes firearms even more impersonal, and more likely to overcome empathy to greater degrees proportional to the distance from the trigger and the victim.
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December 19, 2012 at 7:02 pm
bj
Reneta: some idiot on FTB was making the argument that the CT shooter could have killed as many people if he was duel-wielding swords…lol
Allen is not connected to reality, and neither was that dope.
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December 19, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Allen
Okay, it looks like you both are self righteous. First off you are seriously telling me that we need to give more money to planned parenthood which encourages abortions, take the easy way out they tell you, you don’t deserve this. IF someone had told you how babies were made maybe you would have to make this decision, yet by somehow you explaining this to someone is all the sudden going to stop that young man at the Friday night party not want to have sex with you after you two have been drinking for the past two hours. I again will come to the conclusion that you are both idiots and think that by some change the non existent morals of science will outweigh the teachings of the Bible. I too have soul searched and put myself through critical thinking, if you think that just because you don’t believe in God makes your critical thinking more effective than a believers critical thinking you are more nutty than I thought. Hey why don’t we ban prostitution and drugs, that will stop all the drug and prostitution rings right? I can go five minutes down the road to downtown, pick up a sac of dope and bring home a prostitute…..IT”S NOT GOING TO CHANGE THINGS if you put a gun ban on the people of the US…it’s part of the One world government that you’ve bought into, why has DHS bought all the ammo that they could…hmmmm critically think about that one, why is Obama training young Americans to be FEMA “Soldiers”…hmmm critically think about that one. Hitler did these things, and abortion is a form of population control along with the promotion of homosexuality. If you were such a critical thinker maybe you would not stop at the tip of the iceberg on issues and you would actually research all sides of these issues, not go with the most “trendy” thing that all of your loony friends say. If the mother’s life is at no risk of being lost why must we kill the baby that is innocent? I’ve seen women give their lives after giving birth to healthy babies, I am a male and don’t think that I could be so selfless in that situation, but other than direct threat to the mother’s life why must we kill these babies and more importantly why must we promote it and have it so easily accessible……are you seriously suggesting that if I tell an 17 year old girl not to have sex and she goes to a party and starts drinking, with peer pressure obviously present, that she is going to say, oh you know Allen said that this wasn’t right, better listen to Allen…come on you make yourself look foolish, your Godless mentality and self righteous approach are ludacriis at best. You tell other people not to decide what women do with their body but you want to tell them what to do with their guns, hey RESPONSIBLE gun owners don’t kill, RESPONSIBLE women don’t get pregnant at a young age….what teaches these morals in great detail, the BIBLE, what does your bible say, oh that’s right, you’re part of the anything goes without consequence group, let me know how that works out for you…..don’t complain when your idiotic mentality back fires on you, you have no boundries or morals yet you try to put rules on things, contradict things much? Putz……
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December 19, 2012 at 8:43 pm
bj
yeah Allen, and if we ban abortion, women are going to do it anyways, and many will die in the process after sticking a coat hanger up their vaginas
but you would like to see women die, wouldn’t you?
and btw, the abortions Planned Parenthood does are with donation funds only, not federal funds, and those funds are kept separate from the federal funds which are used for other health services. And it would be against the law for PP to mix those funds, so they don’t. They have even been investigated and guess what, there is NO mixing of funds
So admit it, you just don’t want women to have access to health care and contraception.
And its super funny hearing YOU accuse us of being self-righteous. LOL
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December 19, 2012 at 8:45 pm
bj
And let me guess Allen, you think that an egg, at the very moment of fertilization, is a person, right?
Do you support personhood for embryos Allen? Should a fertlized egg get citizenship?
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December 19, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Reneta Scian
Allen, you have no evidence to support your claims, you use anecdotal, or outright false information to support your claims. You are a conservative mouth piece, you believe what they tell you. A brainwashed individual with not a lick of sense to check your facts, find support for your arguments, or back up one thing you say with any kind of logical sense, much less evidence. Take your delusion elsewhere. The rest of us will live in reality, but keep your nonsensical beliefs to yourself. There is no righteousness in “knowing the way the world works” it’s called knowledge for a reason. Just because we aren’t willing to share your delusion doesn’t mean we are “Self-Righteous”. I came to many of the conclusions I did after sizable amounts of research, lots of other peoples research (costing money of course), lots of things I learn, saw and observed, and through the abilities provided me by critical thought, logical process, and science. Your argument has no point, no support, and you are ignorant.
Regulations and Laws referring to drugs and prostitution are also problematic, furthermore have nothing to do with gun control or abortion. You have proved nothing and demonstrated that you have nothing valid to say. If you could prove your point with evidence, with reason, and sane logic, then we may be willing to hear you out. But given the things that are already known about this subject, it would be virtually impossible for you to produce sufficient evidence or reason for us to support your position. This isn’t about you, this is about reality. The very same reality you treat like tissue paper in exchange for a convenient fantasy. Also, responsible women get raped every day, responsible gun owners can and do kill people, sometimes needlessly, and everything you say is contrived nonsense. You don’t listen. Go away until you can learn to be reasonable, and have an actual debate without insulting the people you debate with, or their intelligence to know that the nonsense you spew is garbage.
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December 19, 2012 at 10:17 pm
Reneta Scian
By the way, morals don’t come from The Bible, and the morals in the bible are contradictory, atrocious, and vile. We get morals from things like the Harm Principle (et cetera) and through science. Because when we know how the world works we can act more morally in it. When we learned that animals had emotions, and experience pain (just like humans) we started thinking differently about their treatment. When we learned that people with Tourette’s had a disease we stopped harming them for their strange behavior. Same with Autism and many, many other things that have scientifically turned out to be parts of human nature, that are unchangeable, and are of no consequence or danger to other human beings. “the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.” As a fetus does not qualify as an autonomous, full being, it is not and can not be granted the same rights to the same degree as a full and autonomous human life, no matter what value you attach to it.
You believe that we are spewing what others told us, because you can not separate in your mind the difference between consistency and ideology. There is no one “ideological tie” here, but an observation of reality shared by many of us that makes us “consistent”. Because reality is consistent, so too are many of our opinions. Wake up.
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December 19, 2012 at 10:21 pm
bj
The bible condones slavery.
The bible also condones child marriage.
And the bible also condones rape.
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December 19, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Allen
you both are lost beyond retraction, I have to work both of my jobs tomorrow, but, not that I care to speak anymore to you two morons about this but, I will present evidence along with references tomorrow night when I get off, you see the problem with your kind is that you are in the bubble, I will prove that, then maybe you two will shut that hole under your nose and open the two up on the side of your heads, then, as we say here in the south, you might learn you something.
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December 19, 2012 at 11:36 pm
Reneta Scian
Allen, your comments, and insults speak more to the flaws in your character, of your arrogance, and your ignorance than they speak of us. You must believe we are in a bubble, you must believe we are flawed, lost, unsaved, beyond retrieval because that is what your beliefs command of you. Christianity requires ignorance for obedience, and no one who asks you not to think is your friend. You see us as less than because your delusion commands you. You stand believing yourself righteous, while holding sacrosanct the beliefs of your morally reprehensible religion. We are opposed because we support reality, evidence, and rationalism, and you support the beliefs we all can to recognize for what they are… Contrived, false, intolerant, bigoted, and ultimately delusional and departed from reality. You must believe what you believe of us because that is what your system of belief contrives and requires you to believe.
It demands you obedience with fear, and shame, and commands your ignorance in order to sustain it’s grasp on you. You fail to see because your eyes are shut to the world, to evidence, to knowledge (partially), and to reason. Keep believing your delusion. You believe it is us who “needs to learn”, but I was once like you. I am very well aware of the lie in which you live. It’s pitiable that you are yet to see it. I hope that one day you do. The world is a wondrous, scary, and immense place… I hope that one day you can see it with eyes like mine. It really is a great place to be, and it could be a better place if we all saw it with the eyes of reason. Religion is Power, Delusion, Falsehood, Logically Fallacy, and Self-Righteousness. Especially your brand. Goodbye, and I wish you the best, and pray you don’t remain arrogantly indoctrinated in it for all of your life. That would truly be a shame.
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December 19, 2012 at 11:54 pm
The Arbourist
My my. I leave this thread alone for a bit and it goes wild.
Allen, calling people morons and idiots doesn’t make you any more right. If anything, just more wrong, I did not think that was possible.
You get to cool down for a bit, and come back when you’re not all frothing at the mouth. Just a reality check, unless you’re well argued I highly doubt you’ll gain any traction here.
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December 21, 2012 at 12:37 pm
pitbullgirl65
Dear Allen: fuck your God. Any god who allows a madman to massacre 26 people because they don’t worship him, is a fucking asshole of a god.
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December 22, 2012 at 7:50 am
The Arbourist
Ramen to that. :)
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December 22, 2012 at 1:01 pm
The Arbourist
Skimming the comments made by Allen…
There is some real unhinged shite going on there. Many thanks to the commentariat on taking the baseless assertions to task.
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December 22, 2012 at 1:14 pm
The Arbourist
Another note – Notice how not one of these fine individuals have retracted their shite. Making hay on the murder of children is a-fracking okay. Like I said in the post, please continue to campaign against women but have at least a tattered shred of decency when it comes to respecting life and loss.
This high level of moral conduct, if typical of the movement, illustrates much of the toxically insipid ethical nature of anti-choice advocates.
The self-appointed douche of the hour Allen translates missing the point into an art-form. Here is the point Allen – you’re attempting to bolster your position on abortion using the murder of 20 kids and 6 adults.
My dear “pro-life” friends, This was not a time to retread your crap arguments with the tragedy of others. This was a time for an authentic “mea culpla” because your “side” stepped way over the line into some opportunistic, unethical behaviour.
That is all.
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December 22, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Reneta Scian
Here, here. I haven’t seen a comment thread go so “ape-shite” since the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” post. And you are quite right. These “self appointed” concern trolls really have no clue what exactly it is they are endorsing it. That is why nothing should be considered sacred. There is no need of sacrosanctness with modern day science. No fact about reality can be easily overturned, defending the indefensible is just foolhardy.
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December 26, 2012 at 9:05 pm
bj
amen
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January 9, 2013 at 8:39 am
Ericzipp
Actually most of the sandy hook kids had mothers that loved them enough to give them a chance at life. Also, where as the 20 6-7 year old children where killed by a drug crazed person the hundreds of thousands 0 year olds killed every year by mother because they are a bother. I guess at least the hundreds of thousands killer mothers at least have a determined motive where it seems the newtown man didn’t.
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