One of the cheap rhetorical tricks that forced birth advocates often use is the idea that somehow “Science” (ya know science, that vast shadowy monolithic structure) supports their crappy arguments and thus lends weight to their assault on women and their rights. One of the easiest tells illustrating the rhetorical, rather than scientific vein of this particular argument, is that idea that we have a definite grasp of when “life” begins. Unsurprisingly, the anti-choice position relies on a gross simplification of what the bio-medical position actually is on when life begins. The irony is very rich as fetus fetishists often assign the label of “anti-science” to pro-choice people arguing against them and their misguided campaign for life.
I’m not really a fan of arguing from authority (This introduction is a perspective from an evolutionary biologist, for the record.), but I swear, if see one more out of context reference to a embryology text during an argument, I will practice immediate defenestration of the offender in question.
This next quoted section is from Blazer S, Zimmer EZ (eds):The Embryo: Scientific Discovery and Medical Ethics. Basel, Karger, 2005, pp 1– 20 (ed. minor formatting changes for effect)
”
[…]
This chapter began with the central ethical question of ‘when does life begin?’ The evolutionary answer to this question makes it devoid of ethical
implications concerning the sojourn from conception to birth (although it has other, profound ethical implications). Instead, the evolutionary and
genetic arguments presented in this chapter indicate that a more meaningful ethical question is:
Where do we place ethical thresholds in the continual process of human
individuality?
Biology provides no clear defining event to answer this question because diploid human individuality arises gradually during the mitotic phase of our life cycle and not at fertilization. Perhaps there is no single ethical threshold in dealing with the mitotic continuum and the attendant gradual emergence
of functional genotypes and individual traits. Although modern biology does not provide an answer to the above question, knowing what the question should be and what it should not be is the critical first step in any debate. Thus, modern biology, and particularly evolutionary biology and genetics, can play an important role in the ethical debates concerning the passage from conception to birth.
[…]”
So let the record be set straight that science doesn’t not precisely know when “life” begins and that very possibly it is the wrong question to be asking.




19 comments
March 7, 2013 at 6:21 am
theguywiththeeye
Yes, they love to get tangled in words. Ok … “life” begins at conception … well, the cold virus is “life” … but, you don’t hesitate to spray lysol all over your house – do you?
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March 7, 2013 at 8:00 am
Darwin O'Connor
There should be more of this kind of discussion in the abortion debate, since that is what the two sides actually disagree about. The issue isn’t about women’s rights.
As you point out there is no clear answer. That should encourage people who disagree about it to have a bit more respect for eachother’s opinions.
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March 7, 2013 at 9:26 am
syrbal
Ah, defenestration — a favorite of mine! Yu know, I don’t really give a damn about when life begins. For me, the issue IS about a woman’s right to control what happens to her own body, and her OWN LIFE. We know a woman IS alive….she has “time in grade” on the planet, so far as I am concerned, to decide what happens to her.
I’ll talk some more about “when life begins” when the “every sperm is sacred” crew starts telling MEN to not drink, not smoke, not eat wrong, etc to “protect the sperm that are half of life.” Because since I see women getting all sorts of messages about living as if they are nothing more than walking incubation chambers….sure, let’s talk about BOTH sides of that particular equation.
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March 7, 2013 at 9:38 am
Darwin O'Connor
I believe it is important when human life begins, because then abortion becomes an issue of the rights of one person vs. another person.
Police can shoot a women if they are holding a gun to someone’s head.
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March 7, 2013 at 11:55 am
Mystro
@Darwin O’Connor
“As you point out there is no clear answer.”
The point was definitely not ‘no one knows, so all positions must be respected’. The point was ‘anti-choice claims about science backing them up is a load of BS’.
“The issue isn’t about women’s rights….Police can shoot a women if they are holding a gun to someone’s head.”
You’ve just illustrated how protecting one person’s rights can trump another’s right to life. Likewise, (and more analogous) you can evict someone from your house, even if they would die outside.
Anti-choicers would give women less control over their bodies than you have over your house.
Indeed, I believe you’ve just demonstrated that women’s rights is the only thing this issue is about.
If only everyone would refute their own misconceptions as handily as you have.
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March 7, 2013 at 12:05 pm
heinrich
Darwin O’Connor:
”
I believe it is important when human life begins, because then abortion becomes an issue of the rights of one person vs. another person.
”
You have a belief because the perceived consequence of that belief is to frame the “issue” in terms that you like.
Rational beliefs are based on matters-of-fact, not on the premise that you seek to compartmentalize the “issue” in such a way as to accord “rights” to a blastocyst.
If you honestly believe that “abortion becomes an issue of the rights of one person vs. another person”, then you are free not to have an abortion.
”
Police can shoot a women if they are holding a gun to someone’s head.
”
False analogy. Your fallacy is: irrelevance.
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March 7, 2013 at 12:08 pm
Darwin O'Connor
Someone right to life can trump another’s right to life. Can one’s right to control their body trump another’s right to life?
If you kick your child or other dependent out of your house and leave them to die that would be a criminal offense somewhere between failure to provide the necessities for life and murder.
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March 7, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Darwin O'Connor
“You have a belief because the perceived consequence of that belief is to frame the ‘issue’ in terms that you like.”
Actually, I would like to be pro-abortion because of the severe consequences of banning abortion, like dangerous back-ally abortion, the shaming of women with unplanned pregnancies and the difficulties faced by children with unprepared parents.
However, I have trouble rationally and morally justifying giving rights based on whether or not someone happens to be in a womb.
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March 7, 2013 at 11:29 pm
Mystro
“If you kick your child or other dependent out of your house and leave them to die that would be a criminal offense somewhere between failure to provide the necessities for life and murder.”
Taking a child in then putting it out in the cold is completely different. It wouldn’t even have to be your child and that would be wrong. Nothing about your version of the analogy fits in with what we’re talking about.
Let’s try to make it closer. Suppose you have a dependant in your care and it turns out that if you continue to give this care, the dependant, it will cause you severe physical trauma, and possibly kill you. Do you have to keep caring for this dependant? No. Even if you’re the only one who could possibly keep the dependant alive? Still no.
Consider your preferred position of pro-choice morally and rationally justified. You’re welcome.
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March 8, 2013 at 6:56 am
Darwin O'Connor
I’ve not sure I agree you it would be okay not to keep caring for such a child, especially if you are only one who could keep them alive.
Let make it closer, still. What about if caring for them would cause moderate physical trauma and only a tiny chance of killing you and you are the only one who could keep the dependent alive?
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March 8, 2013 at 9:29 am
heinrich
@ Darwin
Try this on for size:
”
However, I have trouble rationally and morally justifying giving rights based on whether or not someone happens to be inside a man.
”
Or this:
”
However, I have trouble rationally and morally justifying giving rights based on whether or not someone happens to be a parasite.
”
You see, calling an embryo “someone” kind of puts your conceptual preferences on display.
The “someone” you speak of is a very different kind of “person” that you or I. That “someone” is using the lungs, heart, blood, kidneys, and liver of an another adult person.
While this embryonic “someone” didn’t have a choice in entering into this dependency, it is quite possible that the adult didn’t either.
It’s really not important that we solve this ‘issue’, though.
It’s not our decision to make.
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March 8, 2013 at 9:48 am
Mystro
@Darwin O’Connor
“I’ve not sure I agree you it would be okay not to keep caring for such a child”
What on earth are you on about? You can stop caring for any dependant any time you want. In the case of children, it’s called ‘putting them up for adoption’. Happens all the time, even with no threat to the parent’s life.
“Let make it closer, still. What about if caring for them would cause moderate physical trauma and only a tiny chance of killing you…”
I suggest you do some reading before you start minimizing the pains and dangers of child birth. This statement betrays either gross ignorance or a monstrously callous disregard for women. YOU don’t think much of HER trauma? YOU don’t think HER risk of death is all that significant? Way to expose the misogynistic core of the anti-choice movement.
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March 8, 2013 at 10:52 am
Darwin O'Connor
Heinrich, I would agree with those two statements at least as strongly as I would my own.
After I posted my comment I realized that I should have said something instead of someone. Of course that is the real question: It is something or someone? I don’t think there is a word in the English language was doesn’t imply one or the other.
Mystro, I assumed by “severe physical trauma” you meant the kind that would be the result of a serious car accident that leaves you in the hospital for weeks and require months of recovery. Pregnancy normally requires little to no hospital stay.
I checked some statics and the risk of death for pregnancy is 7.8 per 100,000 which compares favorably to the risk of driving which is 13 per 100,000.
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March 8, 2013 at 11:33 pm
bjh
The maternal mortality rate is up to roughly 24 per 100,000.
350,000 women die per year in the world from pregnancy.
Fewer people die from the flu per year and look at all of the effort that goes into preventing people from catching it.
Yet people think it is completely acceptable to put a woman’s life at risk because she has a uterus, and if you have a uterus, making babies is what you are for, right?
My stats are from the CDC and WHO.
And every woman counts you asshole. I don’t care if it is 1/100,000. Forcing someone to put their health and life at risk in the service of another is nothing short of slavery. And it is not YOUR place to make health and yes, life and death decisions for others, based on your morality.
It is about CHOICE.
And seeing as how you think pregnancy is some sort of JOKE I have a surprise for you.
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March 8, 2013 at 11:35 pm
bjh
I knew a eighteen year old girl who died of an ectopic pregnancy, she was on her way to the hospital, she had been sexually exploited her whole life by her grandmother and mother. Her father did not want her. She could not make it to the hospital because she lived in rural deep south and was thirty minutes away from a hospital. The creepy man who got her pregnant is happy as can be, “He is still alive” he did not have to die in pain because he had sex.
Normal or expectable side effects of pregnancy:
· exhaustion
· gestational diabetes – can remain permanent as Type II diabetes
· altered appetite
· nausea and vomiting
· heartburn and indigestion
· constipation
· weight gain
· hypothyroidism
· dizziness and light-headedness
· bloating, swelling, fluid retention
· hemorrhoids
· hematoma (usually on the vulva but can be on the inside of the vagina)
· abdominal cramps
· yeast infections
· congested/bloody nose
· acne and skin disorders
· skin discoloration
· mild to severe backache and strain
· increased headaches
· difficulty/discomfort with sleeping
· increased urination/incontinence
· gum disease (leading to premature tooth loss)
· pica
· breast pain and discharge
· swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
· difficulty sitting/standing in later pregnancy
· inability to take regular medications
· shortness of breath
· higher blood pressure
· hair loss (this is a permanent side effect)
· anemia
· inability to participate in some sports and activities
· high susceptibility to infection (pregnant women have a much lower immunity to illness, infection and disease than non-pregnant women or men because the pregnant woman’s immune system has to literally shut down so her system’s antibodies don’t attack the implanted fertilized ovum)
· extreme pain during labor and delivery (which can last for several hours to several days)
· hormonal mood changes, including post-partum depression
· post-partum psychosis/birth related PTSD (caused by a birth that was traumatic for the woman)
· extended post-partum recovery period and exhaustion (a difficult vaginal birth or a C-section can take a year or more to fully recover)
Normal, expectable, and frequent permanent side effects of pregnancy and birth:
· stretch marks
· loose skin
· permanent weight gain or redistribution
· permanent change to pelvic skeletal and ligament structure — it is not uncommon for a woman’s hips to be 4” wider than normal for the passage of the fetus during birth as her pelvic bone opens and ligaments stretch, and often this change is permanent, leaving many women unable to EVER get back into their pre-pregnancy clothes even if they lose ALL their pregnancy weight (leaving poor women, who are unable to afford to replace all their pre-pregnancy clothes, with absolutely nothing to wear except a couple pairs of oversized sweatpants and maybe one or two donated used maternity outfits)
· abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness that Kegels won’t necessarily prevent, cure, or fix
· pelvic organ damage (causing urinary and fecal incontinence and severely diminished quality of life, try re-entering the workforce with a problem like that!)
· difficulty resuming employment due to lifting restrictions imposed by permanent pelvic floor damage from pregnancy stress and/or childbirth injuries.
· changes to breasts (saggy and “deflated”)
· varicose veins
· disfigurement/scarring from episiotomy or C-section
· other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (which can be devastating to a woman’s life chances for everything from finding a marriage partner to getting a good job in a culture that emphasizes women’s value on youth, thinness and beauty)
· hemorrhoids
· loss of dental or bone calcium (tooth decay/loss and osteoporosis)
Occasional complications and side effects:
· invasive Strep-A infection (also known as “childbirth fever”; causes necrosis, leading to limb amputation and sometimes death)
· domestic violence/murder (pregnant women are more at risk for being murdered by boyfriends and husbands than non-pregnant women)
· hyperemesis gravidarum (severe morning sickness causing dehydration, malnourishment, and bodily stress that can lead to kidney failure)
· obstructed labor (caused by fetal malpresentation, large babies, fetal shoulder dystochia resulting in internal pelvic organ tissues to necrotize)
· permanent injury to back (late pregnancy and delivery)
· severe lacerations, tissue scarring requiring surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
· prolapsed uterus/vagina (risk increases tremendously after additional pregnancies and pelvic floor weaknesses)
· pre-eclampsia (the most common pregnancy complication — edema and hypertension associated with 10% of all pregnancies, mostly among older pregnant women; a precursor to eclampsia, which is fatal)
· eclampsia (convulsions, seizures, coma during pregnancy or labor, fatal unless pregnancy is aborted)
· gestational diabetes — often remains permanent in the form of Adult Type II diabetes resulting in permanent debilitating health condition requiring medication, frequently leading to blindness and limb amputations (aggravated by lack of ability to afford healthy food low in starches and sugars)
· placenta previa (causes laboring women to bleed to death during delivery)
· thrombocytopenic purpura (causing women to bleed to death during/immediately after birth)
· severe cramping
· embolism (blood clots, air bubbles, amniotic fluid bubbles escaping into circulatory system causing stroke or massive heart attack; usually fatal)
· medical disability requiring total bed rest
· diastasis recti (abdominal muscle separation/tears)
· mitral valve stenosis (causes heart failure, stroke, and pulmonary edema)
· lack of resistance to highly infectious diseases
· hormonal imbalance (causes weight problems, depression, and breast and reproductive organ cancer)
· ectopic pregnancy (fatal unless medically aborted)
· broken bones (rib cage and lower spine from fetal pressure in late pregnancy and during delivery)
· hemorrhage
· refractory gastroesophegal reflux disease
· aggravation of pre-pregnancy conditions/diseases (epilepsy, diabetes, heart condition, high blood pressure, etc)
· permanently ruined sex life from injury to the nerves and tissues of the sexual organs (caused by 3rd and 4th degree vaginal tears, episiotomies received by 85-90% of all birthing women, paraurethral tract and parasympathetic nerve trauma, etc. during delivery often accompanied by permanent fecal and/or urinary incontinence)
· elevated risks for certain cancers
Serious complications causing permanent problems associated with pregnancy, labor and delivery:
· peripartum cardiomyopathy (weakened heart)
· cardiopulmonary arrest (fatal: irreversible brain damage and death occurs within 4 minutes)
· magnesium toxicity
· severe hypoxemia/acidosis
· massive embolism
· increased inter-cranial pressure, brainstem infarction (An Alzheimer-like forgetfulness from brain matter shrinkage called “mommy brains”)
· molar pregnancy/ gestational trophoblastic disease (a mass of abnormal/malignant tissue growth from the placenta)
· malignant arrhythmia ( coronary artery spasms)
· circulatory collapse
· obstetric fistula – (tear/hole due to tissue damage from pressure to the area separating the vagina from the rectum or the vagina from the bladder; causing urine and/or feces to pass through the vagina uncontrollably. Fistulas require surgery and are not always able to be repaired 100% even after several subsequent surgeries)
· colostomy – caused by an irreparable obstetric fistula and trauma to the internal pelvic organ system from pregnancy and giving birth
More permanent side effects:
· poverty
· future infertility
· autoimmune disease
· permanent disability
· death
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March 10, 2013 at 1:37 am
Mystro
@Darwin O’Connor
“Mystro, I assumed by “severe physical trauma” you meant the kind that would be the result of a serious car accident that leaves you in the hospital for weeks and require months of recovery.”
I think I made it pretty clear that I took issue with you feeling you had the right to decide what was ‘too severe’ a trauma for someone else to risk.
@bjh
I felt a great disturbance in the anti-choice ranks, as if millions of hateful voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. Thank you so much for your comments.
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March 10, 2013 at 8:11 am
The Arbourist
Now now bjh, lets not get all hysterical now…
It is interesting how easy it is to classify ‘acceptable risk’ when it is not your neck at stake.
QFT.
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March 10, 2013 at 8:12 am
The Arbourist
@bjh
Just curious, did you get the list from the Liz Library? :>
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March 11, 2013 at 10:11 am
bjh
@the arbourist
No, I was reading Libby Anne’s blog at patheos and a wonderful commenter provided it.
I had seen the list elsewhere in the past, but the format was un-pasteable.
This one is lovely!
I haul it out whenever people proclaim, loudly, that pregnancy ain’t a thing!
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