“It is important to make the distinction between men’s supposed loss of control and their use of violence for the purpose of control, because this goes right to a root cause of their violence against women. If the problem is that men simply cannot control their tempers, then the solution is to start building anger management skills into school curricula, starting in kindergarten.
But if the problem is men’s learned need to exercise power and control over women, then the solution is much more difficult. It requires that all of us take a look in the mirror and ask: Why do so many men in our society feel the need to control and dominate women? At what age do boys begin to learn that having power over women is part of being a man? What steps can we take in order to change that, both on an individual and an institutional level?”
–Jackson Katz, Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help
bleatmop
Mystro
Dead Wild Roses 
12 comments
December 8, 2016 at 9:22 am
Godless Cranium
Yeah, the same could be said for women. Maybe a good round of anger management for everyone is in order:
“Yet in 2010, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released data from its National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey — and one of the most shocking statistics wasn’t just the sheer total of victims of physical violence but also how those numbers broke down by gender.
According to the CDC’s statistics — estimates based on more than 18,000 telephone-survey responses in the United States — roughly 5,365,000 men had been victims of intimate partner physical violence in the previous 12 months, compared with 4,741,000 women. By the study’s definition, physical violence includes slapping, pushing, and shoving.
More severe threats like being beaten, burned, choked, kicked, slammed with a heavy object, or hit with a fist were also tracked. Roughly 40 percent of the victims of severe physical violence were men. The CDC repeated the survey in 2011, the results of which were published in 2014, and found almost identical numbers — with the percentage of male severe physical violence victims slightly rising.
“Reports are also showing a decline of the number of women and an increase in the number of men reporting” abuse, says counselor and psychologist Karla Ivankovich, PhD, an adjunct professor of psychology at the University of Illinois, Springfield.”
https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/the-number-of-male-domestic-1284479771263030.html
And:
Campaigners claim that men are often treated as “second-class victims” and that many police forces and councils do not take them seriously. “Male victims are almost invisible to the authorities such as the police, who rarely can be prevailed upon to take the man’s side,” said John Mays of Parity. “Their plight is largely overlooked by the media, in official reports and in government policy, for example in the provision of refuge places – 7,500 for females in England and Wales but only 60 for men.”
The official figures underestimate the true number of male victims, Mays said. “Culturally it’s difficult for men to bring these incidents to the attention of the authorities. Men are reluctant to say that they’ve been abused by women, because it’s seen as unmanly and weak.”
The number of women prosecuted for domestic violence rose from 1,575 in 2004-05 to 4,266 in 2008-09. “Both men and women can be victims and we know that men feel under immense pressure to keep up the pretence that everything is OK,” said Alex Neil, the housing and communities minister in the Scottish parliament. “Domestic abuse against a man is just as abhorrent as when a woman is the victim.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence
Violence regardless of sex is wrong, and pretending it’s a female only issue and that only men need anger management classes is irresponsible and, frankly, sexist.
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December 8, 2016 at 10:16 am
Let’s Talk About Domestic Violence | Godless Cranium
[…] at DWR, there is a post about domestic violence, and as usual it paints men as the monsters and women as the […]
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December 8, 2016 at 11:31 am
The Arbourist
@GC
Actually no. You’ve used links to the CDC study, did you actually look at what the study says or did you find articles in newspapers that confirmed the conclusion that you wanted to see? As a self-claimed ‘Skeptic’ you should be aware of confirmation bias and the role it plays in how we view the world and when trying to make arguments.
Let’s take a look at what the results of the survey you linked to actually say (p. 25):
“Q: Do men and women experience similar levels of intimate partner violence (IPV)?
It is important to fully consider the overall pattern of IPV experiences and this is one of the strengths of NISVS. While overall 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men in the US have experienced rape, physical violence,
and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime, the contrasts between the experiences of men and women sharpen when we look at the specific forms of IPV, the severity of the physical violence
experienced, and the impact of the violence.
Forms:
-While 92% of male victims experienced only physical violence, 36% of women experienced more than one form, including 12.5% of female victims who experienced all three (rape, physical violence,
and stalking by an intimate partner). The type of physical violence assessed in NISVS ranged from being slapped, pushed, or shoved to more severe forms of physical violence such as being hit with a fist or
something hard, beaten, slammed against something, choked, burned, etc..
Severity:
While about 30% of women and 26% of men reported being slapped, pushed, or shoved by an intimate partner, 24% of women and 14% of men reported severe physical violence.
Impact:
The types and severity of violence experienced contribute to the impact. About 3 in 10 women and 1 in 10 men experience these forms of violence AND reported at least one IPV -related impact. This
means that, among victims, over 80% of women who reported rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner also reported one or more negative impacts (e.g., fear, injury, missed school/
work, etc), whereas, about 35% of men who experienced these forms of violence by an intimate reported an impact.
Q: Does the report include information about the sex of the perpetrators?
This report does include information about the sex of the perpetrators. For example, the report documents that male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Also, nearly half of all male stalking victims reported perpetration by a male. Male victims of other forms of violence reported predominantly female perpetrators. The majority of female victims reported victimization by a male perpetrator. ”
The above quote is from the FAQ, as the authors are responding in generalities. The CDC report is available in full here and I can reference the parts that illustrate what they are saying if you wish; following the evidence so to speak.
The NISVS results indicated that indeed DV is a problem for both sexes, it also concludes that the problems for women are more prevalent and more severe for women. So is the NISVS rife with sexism, and if it is, why are you using it to base your arguments on?
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December 8, 2016 at 11:45 am
Godless Cranium
“Actually no. You’ve used links to the CDC study, did you actually look at what the study says or did you find articles in newspapers that confirmed the conclusion that you wanted to see?”
Yes I did and then used Liberal news sites so I couldn’t be accused of bias, which you’re about to try.
“he contrasts between the experiences of men and women sharpen when we look at the specific forms of IPV, the severity of the physical violence
experienced, and the impact of the violence.”
Do both men and women suffer this violence?
You admit as much so your point is moot, really. It happens and can happen to anyone, and the studies show that. Your continued inability to face that fact shows your extreme bias and sexism.
I never denied that DV doesn’t impact women. I know it does and since I’ve suffered DV before on more than one occasion, I know it effects men as well. You don’t get to tell people their DV experience is somehow less than because they’re a man.
“While about 30% of women and 26% of men reported being slapped, pushed, or shoved by an intimate partner, 24% of women and 14% of men reported severe physical violence.”
Can you read your own shit? You’re basically saying that 14%…who cares? Fuck them. The 24% is more important. Let’s only focus on that.
“among victims, over 80% of women who reported rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner also reported one or more negative impacts (e.g., fear, injury, missed school/
work, etc), whereas, about 35% of men who experienced these forms of violence by an intimate reported an impact.”
Jesus. You are so very sexist.
So those 35% don’t matter because more women reported negative impacts.
And just because the impacts weren’t reported by men, doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.
“The NISVS results indicated that indeed DV is a problem for both sexes, it also concludes that the problems for women are more prevalent and more severe for women. So is the NISVS rife with sexism, and if it is, why are you using it to base your arguments on?”
No. You’re rife with sexism. They’re reporting facts, which you’ve tried to minimize and make it seem as if men don’t matter. They’re not sexist – you are.
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December 8, 2016 at 11:56 am
The Arbourist
@GC
The article in the Guardian features “the men’s rights campaign group Parity”
“Campaigners claim that men are often treated as “second-class victims” and that many police forces and councils do not take them seriously.”
“The official figures underestimate the true number of male victims, Mays said. ”
Would members of a men’s rights group *claim* otherwise?
I’m guessing with digging, results similar to the CDC evidence for your position would turn up.
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December 8, 2016 at 12:01 pm
Godless Cranium
I didn’t use the mens rights group part.
Try again.
I didn’t use it because I knew you’d try to discredit it from that angle. I used the Guardian because they are very Liberal and pro-feminism.
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December 8, 2016 at 12:43 pm
The Arbourist
@GC
Is that filter you apply when looking the the quality of the sources to be used as references in your arguments? Whether they are “liberal” or not? *eeek*
For future reference –
The evidence suggests that consequences and severity of DV are worse for women. That, GC is a fact backed up by the report *YOU* cited. How is that biased or sexist? Please show me the evidence that the conclusion I just stated is incorrect.
Where in either the OP (which is about the exercise of male violence and control) or the first reply to yours (or anywhere really) do I tell people their experience of DV is somehow less?
I really need to see that quote, or is are you arguing against what *you think* I said?
You made this claim quote: GC: “Yeah, the same could be said for women.”
I provided an argument and evidence that it is most definitely not the same for women. So back the fuck up and check what you’re arguing against.
Fascinating, citing evidence about the reality of a situation makes one sexist? Is the criteria for that category seems to be ‘doesn’t agree with GC’? Because I can’t see another rational explanation.
Wouldn’t be nice to see similar righteousness and indignation when it comes to the under reporting of rapes by females? (s) But of course, we can’t give those lying bitches any daylight now, can we? They can ruin male lives with their unfounded slander… (/s) Tell you what, if you are willing to be consistent about the under reporting of crimes, then maybe we should investigate this issue further.
Well if I didn’t know better, this would be the classic SJW tactic of attempting to shame someone who disagrees with them, rather than arguing the facts of the matter. Given your history of railing against the nefarious forces of the PC-SJW crowd, this turn is quite interesting indeed.
You made a false claim about how DV is the same for women and men. I demonstrated -using your sources- that you were wrong, the evidence does not support your assertion. This business of minimization and not mattering is coming for *you* and not me – so if you wish to continue arguing with yourself, please be my guest, but you *do not* get to put words and arguments in my mouth.
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December 8, 2016 at 12:57 pm
Godless Cranium
“Is that filter you apply when looking the the quality of the sources to be used as references in your arguments? Whether they are “liberal” or not?”
No. Of course not. But that’s why I used more than one case and you’re basically saying the CDC is biased. lol
“The evidence suggests that consequences and severity of DV are worse for women.”
No. It showed that it’s worse for women sometimes. Take off the rose colored glasses.
DV effects both sexes. Anyone can suffer DV. You’re being incredibly sexist and hand waving off DV if it’s against men.
“Where in either the OP (which is about the exercise of male violence and control) or the first reply to yours (or anywhere really) do I tell people their experience of DV is somehow less?”
Directly above here you will see it.
You’re getting desperate with responses now because you know what you’re doing is minimizing cases of DV against males, and you know it’s sexist as all hell to do so.
“You made this claim quote: GC: “Yeah, the same could be said for women.”
I provided an argument and evidence that it is most definitely not the same for women. So back the fuck up and check what you’re arguing against.”
And I provided you irrefutable evidence that it can be the same thing and men do suffer DV.
So you back the fuck up and stop being a sexist for a second and admit that this effects both males and females.
“Fascinating, citing evidence about the reality of a situation makes one sexist? Is the criteria for that category seems to be ‘doesn’t agree with GC’? Because I can’t see another rational explanation.”
Minimizing domestic violence against men is the rational part. Any sane person reading this should see that.
“Well if I didn’t know better, this would be the classic SJW tactic of attempting to shame someone who disagrees with them, rather than arguing the facts of the matter. Given your history of railing against the nefarious forces of the PC-SJW crowd, this turn is quite interesting indeed.”
I already argued it. Sometimes the label is justified. I think on this issue, you’re being sexist and the facts back that up. You dismissed DV against men, suggested using your quote that only men should undergo anger management and so forth. I can’t think of how you could have been more obvious with your sexism, other than just plainly stating ‘fuck men’ or ‘let’s kill all men’.
“You made a false claim about how DV is the same for women and men. I demonstrated -using your sources- that you were wrong, the evidence does not support your assertion.”
No I didn’t. I said a man who suffers DV can suffer the same trauma as a woman and that DV effects both men and women. The stats bear this out and for you to assert that men can’t suffer trauma from DV like a woman is fucking ludicrous.
“This business of minimization and not mattering is coming for *you* and not me – so if you wish to continue arguing with yourself, please be my guest, but you *do not* get to put words and arguments in my mouth.”
Fuck no. I am well aware of DV against women. You are the only one asserting that women are the only ones who can suffer it. Don’t even bother trying to tell me I’m minimizing it because nowhere did I state that and nowhere would I ever suggest that women who suffer DV are somehow less than a man who does.
I leave that to people like you.
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December 8, 2016 at 3:36 pm
The Arbourist
@GC
Requoting:
“the types and severity of violence experienced contribute to the impact. About 3 in 10 women and 1 in 10 men experience these forms of violence AND reported at least one IPV -related impact. This
means that, among victims, over 80% of women who reported rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner also reported one or more negative impacts (e.g., fear, injury, missed school/
work, etc), whereas, about 35% of men who experienced these forms of violence by an intimate reported an impact.”
Yes, and this is exactly what they said. I can’t help you if reading comprehensions isn’t on your ‘to do’ list.
Show me where they say otherwise. For once, back up your claims with something other than your opinion or bluster. You see, the problem here is that you didn’t read the study itself, you’re going on information reported in news from the yahoo beauty section – and from the a interview piece from The Guardian. Newsflash – shit in the papers and the internet isn’t always factually correct, that it why it behooves you to check the original sources and evaluate the truth claims of the issues being talked about in papers and on the internet.
Really? You mean backing up my claims with evidence is becoming desperate. I’m not really sure how that works.
You see, When you quote someone you need to provide the statement in question that is relevant to the issue. As I have not made such a statement, you are constructing a a meaning that may have relevance to you, but its not what I said, or posted. And really, if its that obvious it should be easy to type what I said that shows where I explicitly state that only men should undergo anger management.
Stop making shit up. :)
No I didn’t. I said a man who suffers DV can suffer the same trauma as a woman and that DV effects both men and women.
This is what you actually said:
1. “yeah, the same could be said for women. Maybe a good round of anger management for everyone is in order”
2. “Violence regardless of sex is wrong, and pretending it’s a female only issue and that only men need anger management classes is irresponsible and, frankly, sexist.”
Stop moving the goal posts.
The OP is about men and male violence and what we can do to start solving that particular problem.
Rather than see that this might be solution to address male violence you decide you need to bring up female violence and use studies that show the exact opposite (?) of what you’re postulating.
If you would like to apply the ideas from the OP to females as well, why not. But of course the larger problem (as demonstrated by the CDC study cited), being the quantity and severity of male violence, maybe we should address that first.
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December 8, 2016 at 5:11 pm
roughseasinthemed
@ GC
It’s affects, not effects. Affect is the verb, effect is the noun.
Just saying.
The Grauniad is not Liberal and feminist at all. Grow up and don’t quote British media as though you know what you are talking about.
When you take your basic feminism course, you may learn that men are not sexist against women. Whatever you personally think about the deprivation of your rights, feelings, everything else ings. Sexism works one way.
You are complaining, yet again, about Teh Poor Menz. It’s time you shut up. I don’t care how many sycophantic acolytes you have on your blog, you always turn everything round to the men.
Get one thing clear. You are no feminist. No feminist ally. I have not seen a single sensible coherent post from you that supports womens’s rights.
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December 13, 2016 at 10:42 am
sepultura13
@Arb:
You have far more patience than I do! Nicely done.
:cool:
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December 13, 2016 at 10:59 am
The Arbourist
@sepultura13
Thanks. :)
Disabusing dudes of their often quaint notions on topics is tiring, but can be educational as well.
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