I wonder if they have any religious prognosticators in Japan telling the people that abortionists, feminists, homosexuals and secular society was the reason for their natural disaster?
Apparently 9/11 was the result of god’s anger if you listen to certain prominent members of the US religious community.
Yes, with sure faced certainty these two ratbags are commenting solemnly on the will of god and what the ‘rampant secularization’ has caused in the USA. I’m betting such religious mendacity would not see the light of day in Japan, as belief in the supernatural is squarely in the private realm in the island nation. The earthquakes and tsunami in Japan are being dealt with in a rational cogent manner, no supernatural boogy-man involved or necessary.
bleatmop
Mystro
The Arbourist
Dead Wild Roses 
17 comments
March 12, 2011 at 9:07 am
Vern R. Kaine
Haha! If “sin” caused the earthquake, then we’d be swallowed up by now!
I think instead it was because the Japanese had manners. Great Britain will get the next one.
Btw, have they solved all the “birds falling from the sky” and “millions of dead fish” events as of late?
LikeLike
March 12, 2011 at 10:09 am
Alan Scott
The Arbourist ,
You had to go way back to 2001 to find a clip of two religious leaders saying crazy things about the 911 attack . Now you ‘ project ‘ that comment onto the current Japanese disaster, to attack all Christians .
How about I project ? I think this earthquake was somehow caused by man made global warming . The earth is angry at all of us . Perhaps, with all of the heat building up in earth’s atmosphere due to greenhouse gases, the planet cannot release enough of it’s core heat to remain stable . Obviously this instability directly lead to the massive earthquake in Japan .
You people blame every drought, flood, blizzard, and heat wave on global warming, aka. climate change . That is as logical as saying any disaster is God’s punishment on an immoral society .
LikeLike
March 12, 2011 at 12:07 pm
The Arbourist
You had to go way back to 2001 to find a clip of two religious leaders saying crazy things about the 911 attack . Now you ‘ project ‘ that comment onto the current Japanese disaster, to attack all Christians .
There are plenty examples of delusional religious behaviour in the here and now I could have chosen, but 9/11 resonates still with many people and I thought it would provide a more stark contrast between reality and the claims these people are making. (Hurricane Katrina was also a patently ridiculous “punishment for sin”)
How about I project ? I think this earthquake was somehow caused by man made global warming
To make a valid analogy one must first start with at least similar cases in both A and B. In the case of AGW which of course is fact, but has had so far no discernible effect on the plate tectonics and earthquake generation. The religious, on the other hand, making specious claims about the nature of events happening in here in reality is different; therefore the analogy fails.
The idea in what I said is that religious belief makes people say really stupid things, aka Mr.Roberson claiming that abortionists, homosexuality, and secularization of the state incurred god’s wrath via the 9/11 attacks. Imagining that god(?) is somehow meddling in our affairs and when his arbitrary Sin-o-matic counter gets to a certain level he must punish the unfaithful is actually true is off the chain crazy was really the point of the article.
Using another society that has just suffered a natural disaster serves to illustrate how a more rational and less religious culture reacts to the environment around them as opposed to a less rational and more deluded state that assigns blame to the enemies of god.
You people blame every drought, flood, blizzard, and heat wave on global warming, aka. climate change . That is as logical as saying any disaster is God’s punishment on an immoral society .
Errr…so what you propose is that AGW, that does have evidence that it affects what you mentioned,(drought, floods and the like) is on the same level as god and bible which has no reasonable evidence to back its claims, are somehow equivalent?
That argument fails on many levels Mr.Scott.
to attack all Christians .
I draw attention to the crazy-sauce ideas that religion promotes.
LikeLike
March 13, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Alan Scott
The Arbourist,
I will always attack Global Warming because so much of the evidence was manipulated and so many of the predictions made on the climate model have failed . Those on the climate change side embraced the craziest lunatics like Al Gore and only abandoned them when they became laughing stocks .
I have a close friend who is in the Meteorological field. He often cites things like the earth’s global temperature was the highest in 2010 even though many regions like where I live have had colder than normal winters for most of the last decade. He thinks Al Gore is an idiot and is mad that Gore has embarrassed the whole climate change community .
Getting back to the main point . ” The idea in what I said is that religious belief makes people say really stupid things,” You cite two religious leaders who said that 911 was punishment to a whole society . That view, and I cannot cite evidence, would be rejected by 95% of religious people .
I think that the following logic is not out of line with your logic . Mao Tse-tung and Joseph Stalin were hard core Marxist-Communist leaders who murdered millions . They were by definition atheists .
The logic is that not believing in God makes people mass murderers .
LikeLike
March 13, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Mystro
“That view, and I cannot cite evidence, would be rejected by 95% of religious people .”
Don’t worry. Most people cannot cite evidence for figures that they pull out of their ass. Interesting phenomenon that.
“Mao Tse-tung and Joseph Stalin were hard core Marxist-Communist leaders who murdered millions . They were by definition atheists ”
Marxist-communist is not the same as atheist. One has to do with a socio-economic world view and one has to do with whether or not the evidence to support the existence of a deity is sufficient enough to warrant belief.
Your example tries to link two unrelated things, and so it doesn’t work. You may as well have said they both had dark hair and that made them murderers.
On the other hand, the opinion ‘Sin pisses god off so he brings about disaster’ is completely dependant on someone believing that there is at least one intervening god, that he/she/it/they for some reason care(s) what we humans do. Thus this type of bat-shit crazy belief is ONLY possible if one is a theist. In other words, there is a definite causal link from one to the other.
In future analogy attempts, I suggest you try to use something that actually somehow relates to what is being discussed.
LikeLike
March 14, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro,
” Marxist-communist is not the same as atheist. ”
Uuuuuhhhh, you have totally misstated my thesis. Not all atheists are marxist-communists, but by definition ‘ all ‘ marxist-communists are atheists. And that my friend is just as valid as your argument that believing in God means you also believe a disaster is God’s punishment .
Which means it meets the criteria of ” In future analogy attempts, I suggest you try to use something that actually somehow relates to what is being discussed. ”
Which also means that Mao and Stalin were only bat shit crazy murderers because they were atheists.
” Don’t worry. Most people cannot cite evidence for figures that they pull out of their ass. Interesting phenomenon that. ”
If it was good enough for President Obama to pull figures out of his ass to get Obama-Care passed, then I am in good company .
LikeLike
March 15, 2011 at 12:23 am
Mystro
“by definition ‘ all ‘ marxist-communists are atheists”
Allow me to do some basic research for you at that oh so difficult to find dictionary.com
Marx·ism
[mahrk-siz-uhm]
–noun
the system of economic and political thought developed by Karl Marx, along with Friedrich Engels, especially the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society.
and
com·mu·nism
[kom-yuh-niz-uhm]
–noun
1.
a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
You will notice that neither of these definitions have anything to do with theism, either for or against it. So it is entirely possible to be all over the communist scene and still believe in some sort of deity. They are in no way mutually exclusive beliefs. (Hint: A coherent rebuttal would have to include WHY you think they are mutually exclusive, not just you saying that they are).
” your argument that believing in God means you also believe a disaster is God’s punishment ”
I never claimed that. I demonstrated the exact reverse. I showed that having some sort of theistic belief is the ONLY way that one could subsequently believe in natural disasters as divine punishment. I believe I once told you to try reading carefully. That advice still stands.
“Which means it meets the criteria of [a good analogy]…Which also means that Mao and Stalin were only bat shit crazy murderers because they were atheists.”
As per the points above, your analogy still fails miserably.
“If it was good enough for President Obama to pull figures out of his ass to get Obama-Care passed, then I am in good company .”
Given your track record of presenting reliable ‘facts’, I am not convinced of any contrivance by Obama. You really have to get out of this habit of just claiming things without backing them up.
Anyway, in the highly unlikely event that you actually happened to be right about Obama, then his alleged act of making shit up would in no way justifies yours. You would both be very wrong. But, as I’m fairly certain this ‘fact’ came from the same place as your 95% figure I initially questioned, you are just compounding your dishonesty. Big surprise.
LikeLike
March 15, 2011 at 6:19 am
minyatos
Are you people really think that this natural events cause by god for punishment and dead people are the sinner. Are you crazy or idiot?
Do you think god is a bad thing to make people suffer, upper high above and laugh at a place, “damned you, hahaha”. What kind of religious you have? You people are not religious, not beloved, you are nothing if you really think that way.
This earth quake is only because of the earth has a active shell on it.
Japan is unfortunately in a bad place and has three fault line intersetion under them. There is nothing about god, this is only a very harrowing, sad and heart rending disaster.
We have and unfortunately in the same prison, earth, and i will always be very sorry to share this lovely prison with mentally defective and thinking they are smart people kind like you.
I hope god damned you and people think like you.
I can say, You deserve some end like this, not the suffering innocent japanese people.
LikeLike
March 15, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Mystro
“Are you people really think that this natural events cause by god for punishment and dead people are the sinner. Are you crazy or idiot?”
Given your apparent level of English comprehension, I can understand your confusion. Read slowly, carefully, use a dictionary if you have to, but please get at least a somewhat accurate understanding of someone’s position before commenting.
At least you have language barriers as an excuse for your misrepresentation of the points put forth, unlike some other…commenters.
“Do you think god is a bad thing”
Yes, I do.
” You people are not religious”
At least you got that right, I’m not. But you seem to think that I think I’m religious. I assure you, nothing is further from the truth….except religion, I suppose.
“you are nothing…I hope god damned you and people think like you… You deserve some end like this”
That isn’t very nice.
I suggest that if you want to accuse someone else of vulgarity, don’t indulge in mean-spirited mud throwing like this yourself.
LikeLike
March 16, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro,
If I had an ego I would be insulted that you dared question my honesty. You are giving me dictionary definitions of Marxist-Communists. How about we stick to reality???? In practice Communism is always Atheist ! In practice it is always murderous ! Funny how often in the real world, Communism, Atheism, and State ordered murder are found together .
Communist Russia under Stalin and Communist China under Mao were Atheist regimes that actively persecuted all religion. Every hardcore Marxist I’ve ever heard about is an Atheist .
I had a running argument with one on some boards. He scientifically ” proved ” that Communism was the inevitable state of mankind . To them religion is merely a tool of the capitalists to keep the masses passive . The Communists prefer secret police to religion .
To get back to the 95% I threw out. I could be wrong. It is probably 99%. I have no way to conduct a survey, but 100% of the religious people I know personally do not believe any disaster is God’s punishment . In my Church the first reaction to the New Orleans tragedy, the Haiti disaster, and now the Japan disaster is always, ” what can we do to help? ”
Real religious people tend to react that way . I assume some Atheists do too. At least I hope so .
LikeLike
March 17, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Mystro
“You are giving me dictionary definitions of Marxist-Communists. How about we stick to reality?”
In reality, when we use words in a particular language, they mean a particular thing. To find out what that particular thing is, we can use dictionaries. You inventing whatever definition you like for a word is NOT the same as reality. ‘If I had an ego’ indeed.
“In practice Communism is always Atheist”
Cuba is communist and catholic.
I’ve talked to you before about inventing facts just to support your crazy claims. But it seems you need to be told again. Making shit up to make a point is dishonest and much worse than just being wrong.
By the way, even if that wasn’t another figment of your imagination that you try to pass off as factual, you would still have to show a causal link between atheism and communism and/or atheism and murderous tyrants. At the very most (and this would be charitable beyond reason) you have shown a correlative relationship, nothing more. I could just as easily point out that murderous leaders are all male, thus (according to your logic) penises cause murder. It’s ridiculous. Just like your position.
“To get back to the 95% I threw out. I could be wrong. It is probably 99%”
You can’t even keep your own bogus facts consistent. I’ll give you a hint: when caught making up false data, continuing to invent figures will not gain you any credibility, it will only further expose your contrivances for the meaningless garbage that they are.
I know you’re religious, and many religious seem to think that if they don’t know something they get to fill in that gap of ignorance with whatever the hell they like, but if we ‘stick to reality’ that just isn’t a viable option. I know it’s poison to religion, but try engaging in a little critical thought. You’d be amazed at how satisfying consistency and coherency can be.
LikeLike
March 18, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro,
” “In practice Communism is always Atheist”
Cuba is communist and catholic. ”
Just because it now tolerates Catholicism, does not make it Catholic .
:) Nice try . When Castro was a declared Marxist-Leninist, Cuba was an Atheist country. In the 1970s your boy Fidel began to loosen up with a little limited religious freedom . Only in 1992 did full religious freedom become law. Castro said then that Cuba was ‘ secular ‘ instead of Atheist .
So you have indeed caught me in a partial error . I could argue that Cuba is no longer fully communist, but it is still a murderous regime that uses repression to hold onto power. That could make it just a run of the mill dictatorship, not technically Communist . But sinking to that argument is beneath me. So I will have to admit that a Communist regime can evolve from an atheist regime that murders it’s people, to a secular regime that tolerates religion, and murders it’s people .
So not only does Atheism cause mass murders, under Communism, but now secularism, under Communism causes mass murders .
” “To get back to the 95% I threw out. I could be wrong. It is probably 99%”
You can’t even keep your own bogus facts consistent. ”
Prove me wrong !!!!
Since you require me to 100% accurate, how about I require it of you ?
” I could just as easily point out that murderous leaders are all male, thus (according to your logic) penises cause murder. It’s ridiculous. Just like your position. ”
Ever hear of Bloody Mary ?
” I know you’re religious, and many religious seem to think that if they don’t know something they get to fill in that gap of ignorance with whatever the hell they like, but if we ‘stick to reality’ that just isn’t a viable option. I know it’s poison to religion, but try engaging in a little critical thought. You’d be amazed at how satisfying consistency and coherency can be. ”
Oh, you mean like taking the crazed comments of two zealots commenting on 911, and projecting them onto all religious people during the earthquake and tidal wave in Japan ? Is that critical thought ? Is that consistent ? Is that coherent ?
You know, you are right about one thing . When I read your thoughts, I am amazed .
LikeLike
March 19, 2011 at 2:47 am
Mystro
“…Castro said then that Cuba was ‘ secular ‘ instead of Atheist .”
Oh, so now if there is an official separation between church and state, then a country is atheist. Do you consider USA to be an atheist country? I sure don’t.
Christianity is still a huge part of Cuban culture and it seems to be growing.
Sources, if you care:
an article about the mixing of socialism and religion in Cuba.
a review of a book analysing christianity’s influence throughout Cuban history.
a doctorate paper on how religious education survived the two decades of repression and is now “stronger than ever”.
All this is, of course, a sidetrack. I stressed last time that the important thing is that you have not demonstrated the link between atheism and your examples is anything other than coincidental. You still haven’t. No surprise there.
“Ever hear of Bloody Mary ?”
ooh! counter examples. I want to play too.
Ever hear of Sweden? One of the most atheist countries in the world but it doesn’t really have that ‘murderous regime’ aura about it, now does it?
Ever hear of the Dark Ages? Religion ruled and cruel tyranny ran rampant. Can you say ‘Spanish Inquisition’?
Back on track, did you notice I called that argument ridiculous? You using a counter example to invalidate my reductio ad absurdum validates my point. There is no connection between maleness/atheism and cruel leadership.
“Oh, you mean like taking the crazed comments of two zealots commenting on 911, and projecting them onto all religious people during the earthquake and tidal wave in Japan ?”
I didn’t say that the first time and I stressed again that this is not what I said the last time you accused me of it. This is why your counter arguments fail: you are refuting a straw man version of my posts that you made up.
Back in reality, this post and my comments were criticizing those religious people who do make these claims. My point about it being necessary to be a theist before you can believe in natural disasters as divine punishment was to show how the analogies you used are not actually analogous. Note that the logical necessity only goes one way and I never claimed otherwise.
Further, these are not, unfortunately, just two zealots. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be concerned in the slightest. The thing is, these two, and people like them, have a huge and influential following. Crazies like this with economic and social power should be a grave concern for everyone, which is why we post here to debunk their religion-based crap.
“Prove me wrong !!!!”
Well, as you have posted two different figures, logic necessitates that you must have been wrong at least once. And as you’ve admitted to fabricating these figures and have no access to legitimate data, it is quite likely that you were wrong both times.
“Since you require me to 100% accurate, how about I require it of you ?”
I don’t require anything of the kind. All that I require is that you don’t make things up and try to pass them off as facts. If you were to say “most of the religious people I know don’t seem to think that way” I would believe you and wouldn’t care to challenge your veracity. I might still question the relevance of your comment, but that is completely different.
“When I read your thoughts, I am amazed .”
Going by how much you’ve misrepresented my position, I must say I don’t believe you have actually read much of what I have said. Try doing that ‘reading carefully’ thing I told you about. Then we can both be amazed in a positive way.
LikeLike
March 21, 2011 at 6:19 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro,
I am weary of the discussion, which is saying something because I truly love to destroy liberal arguments . You have made a big deal of Cuba . I admit I don’t get why . Castro is a Marxist. Castro is a murderer . Castro is an Atheist . Must be a coinkeedink .
In his old age, he seems to have made an Accommodation with the Catholic Church . So up until 1991 , I was right. This from one of your own links, ” Fidel Castro recognized in 1991 that the Cuban Communist Party erroneously made atheism its religion. ”
You know are totally right . If I would bother to read your sources more closely I could shred your arguments .
This from another of ‘ your ‘ links . ” In everything that American sanctions couldn’t dispute and slow down, Cubans became very successful, sovereign and prosperous. Health and education systems are among the best in the world, ”
This is totally false . They are a poverty stricken nation . Their education system may be good compared to other third world nations , but do not tell me that their health care system is able to deliver quality service to their population . I admit they have good doctors but, these poor guys according to an article in the Wall St. Journal are eager to defect.
Ask yourself, why would that be ????
LikeLike
March 22, 2011 at 7:53 am
Mystro
“You have made a big deal of Cuba”
No, I didn’t. I have said twice that it isn’t what is important.
” Fidel Castro recognized in 1991 that the Cuban Communist Party erroneously made atheism its religion. ”
How is this a point for you? It sounds to me like Castro said he recognized a) Cuba was NOT atheist and b) Governments can’t force religion. You will find that the ACTUAL correlation that you are trying to link between atheism is with governments who try to ignore b), whether that is to force religion onto its people or to force it out of people. Most examples from history are of the former, so it seems ridiculous to me that theists jump on the few times it has been the latter.
” If I would bother to read your sources more closely I could shred your arguments .”
You still have yet to display the capability to understand my points, much less shred them.
AS-goes on and on about Cuba
The only point I wanted to make (and did make) was that religion, specifically christianity (catholicism and protestantism) was spread across a majority of the population and that it was important to their culture. That means it is not an atheist community. That’s it. Hence my saying (four times now) the Cuba example isn’t all that important. Along with reading, you must learn focus.
LikeLike
March 24, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Alan Scott
Mystro ,
” That means it is not an atheist community. ”
It is an Atheist Government . Again it would seem that Christianity, primarily the Catholic Church survived in Cuba despite the persecution of the Communist Atheist Government . That would make the Church an opposition force for good against the bad Atheist Government .
LikeLike
March 24, 2011 at 10:58 pm
Mystro
“It is an Atheist Government .”
It was a government that tried to beat out any competing dogmas through violence and oppression. And that is a very bad thing.
Like I mentioned before, usually in history that means a religious government trying to beat out non-believers, but still theists jump on the half-dozen examples of some other kind of bat-shit-crazy that isn’t religious, but is just as fanatical and focused on wiping out competing dogmas as its theistic counterparts.
The link between theistic tyrannies and killing is directly from their religion. For example “People not a part of our religion piss god off, so to make him happy, we shall kill the heathens”.
The link between so called ‘atheist’ tyrannies and killing is not from atheism, but from their own brand of dogma. For example, a possible crazy belief like this could be “Anyone who doesn’t serve country first should be killed, and as theists serve god first, they fall in that category.”
The important thing to note is that there is absolutely no link whatsoever between ‘I don’t believe there is a god’ (atheism on its own) and ‘I ought to kill group x’
“That would make the Church an opposition force for good against the bad Atheist Government .”
It means nothing of the kind.
If there is a psychotic maniac going about murdering people, two of the possible ways his rampage could be brought to an end are
1) an intended victim, who is a really nice and good person, turns the tables on the maniac and captures him for the police
2) an intended victim, who is a child-molesting-misogynistic-asshole, turns the tables on the maniac and captures him for the police
In both cases, the stopping of the murderer is a good thing, but one cannot tell anything about the survivors ‘goodness’ simply by the fact that they are the ones who survived/stopped the murdering.
To get back on track, the actual points are
1) It is common that in the wake of a natural disaster, there will be religious people, some of them very influential, who will say it is god being angry at people who deserve it.
This does not say ALL religious people, it doesn’t even say most religious people. So quit responding as if that was our point.
2) When religious people do this, it is bullshit and it is mean.
I think we’re good on that.
3) Religious people who say shit like that can only do so because of their religion. If they didn’t believe in a god, then earthquakes cannot be god’s wrath. It would be like you blaming a broken glass on smurfs when you are certain that smurfs don’t exist.
That’s it.
If you have anything to say against these points and NOT some other point you make up and try to sneak in as #4, I welcome your comments.
LikeLike