Your musty christian tome says a lot of neat stuff. Let’s see, if we did not get to cherry pick the morality that suits us, what we would have to do. But then again, consistency is not really a big part of belief now is it?
Thank you to Dammit Janet for the video link.




28 comments
August 4, 2011 at 12:51 pm
TheUnrepublican
I am gay with a live in boyfriend, and I do not find anything about my lifestyle that is necessarily irreconcilable with the Bible.
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August 6, 2011 at 1:02 am
pino
Your musty christian tome says a lot of neat stuff. Let’s see, if we did not get to cherry pick the morality that suits us, what we would have to do.
Great scene!
And yes, a powerful reminder that snippets here and there of history are dangerous dangerous things.
Question:
Are you offering a critique of Christian views of homosexuality because Christianity is the dominant religion in America? Or because Republicans preach on about Christianity? Because you are most familiar with the Christian works? Or because you just don’t wanna use the Koran as an example?
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August 6, 2011 at 7:54 am
The Arbourist
Are you offering a critique of Christian views of homosexuality because Christianity is the dominant religion in America?
Not necessarily because, if you compare what Islam has to say about homosexuals, it is equally as revolting. It would not matter which religion was doing the evil at the time it would the same sad grist for this particular mill. If you check the religion tab, you can quickly ascertain that no religion in particular is spared from the skepticism shown toward christianity. :)
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August 6, 2011 at 7:57 am
Neil
Then you understand the Bible as well as the author in this post and the writers of the TV show — which is to say, not well at all. Too bad the writers just set up a straw man and didn’t put in someone who could refute the lies.
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August 6, 2011 at 9:22 am
The Arbourist
Whoops! They were quoting directly from your fetid book of delusional insanity. The bible does a very fine job of instilling the bigotry, racism and intolerance. The pronouncements made by you at Vern’s blog are proof positive of the reprehensible nature of true belief and the immorality contained within.
Neil | June 26, 2011 at 12:31 pm | Reply
This is all part of the LGBTQX alphabet soup of perversions. When people ask “How can “same-sex marriage” hurt others?” they do so out of ignorance or disingenuousness. This is a perfect example of what you get when making civil rights out of sexual preferences.
The Arbourist | August 5, 2011 at 8:16 am | Reply
“This is all part of the LGBTQX alphabet soup of perversions.”
Your judgment and compassion are noted.
Neil | August 5, 2011 at 6:27 pm |
Calling a perversion a perversion isn’t lacking in compassion or judgment. Saying a perversion isn’t a perversion does lack compassion, and truth.
Vern may allow for that kind of vilely sanctimonious bigotry on his blog, but it won’t fly here. Thanks for coming out and showing the true nature of the “compassion” that runs through your horrendous beliefs.
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August 6, 2011 at 10:48 am
TheUnrepublican
Kind of funny that Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and others is nowhere to be found on your ENTIRE BLOG!
For someone who alleges to expose and attack all religions equally, I find it odd that you leave out 3 big religions that encompass almost 1 billion people.
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August 6, 2011 at 11:17 am
The Arbourist
For someone who alleges to expose and attack all religions equally, I find it odd that you leave out 3 big religions that encompass almost 1 billion people.
Did you not like the colour scheme either? Perhaps the font is unacceptable and impairs your ability to read for comprehension? I will get to work on these pressing issues, as well as the ones mentioned in your comment.
I’m curious now, do your feel vindicated now that you’ve exposed our dirty little secret? Was the “I win” button mashed heartily after you scanned *every* article?
Congratulations.
Anyhow, reading for comprehension might have also informed you that in general around here, the idea of believing in rotten old books, fairy tales and mythology etc is considered to be foolishly ignorant, delusional behaviour. One, if given adequate time for reflection, could infer that this conclusion could be extrapolated to apply to other faiths as well.
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August 6, 2011 at 11:50 am
Alan Scott
Maybe you Bible experts can help me out, where does the Bible say that a whole town has to come together to stone someone for planting different crops side by side ?
All I can find is Lev. 19.19 which prohibits inter breeding cattle with a diverse kind, mingling seed in a field, or mixing linen and wool clothing together . The linen and wool thing I don’t get. The cattle and seed parts are probably good ideas in an agricultural society .
The pork prohibition is also misleading . Both Jewish and Muslim religions prohibited consumption . Since pigs were notorious parasite and disease carriers, there is a practical side.
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August 7, 2011 at 4:05 am
TheUnrepublican
Good point, Alan.
Also, I would like to point out that all of those scriptures used are no longer applicable, as they are part of the law that Christ rendered moot.
They know that, yet they still use it against us.
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August 7, 2011 at 4:07 am
TheUnrepublican
Tsk Tsk Tsk.
Now that would be an assumption, Arby. To jump to conclusions would be irrational!
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August 7, 2011 at 5:53 am
Alan Scott
The Unrepublican,
Thank you. I believe the rant is more anti Semitic than anti Christian . Leviticus is a set of rules set down for a pre Roman agrarian society .
The anti homosexual rules can be argued about because they translate into our society . Bringing up the rest in an incoherent rant about touching footballs and planting different crops side by side , just so that you can make a fool of a Christian on a stupid TV show must make our Atheist friends feel good. I can see now why I never watched that show .
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August 7, 2011 at 8:36 am
tildeb
The point is that cherry picking scripture to support misogyny and bigotry in public policy is too easy a trick xians like to use to suggest that god, and not they, wants it to be so and that as good little jack-booted adherents they can claim to be ‘just following orders’. It’s intellectual paucity to suggest that one example, homosexuality, matters today but not all the other absurd ‘laws’ (from the same fracking books, for crying out loud) that jesus supported in their entirety.
Maybe if more faith-based believers stopped being hypocritical apologists and started being intellectually honest about the immorality of their scriptures, we could finally agree that we bring our morality to our religious beliefs and do not derive it from them. That would go a long way to clearing the public policy table cluttered with god-soaked Iron age morality and help us all find better ways to address very real and very damaging equality problems in our systemically unfair and unjustifiable ill treatment of others.
A good starting point is to agree to uphold in secular law the equality of human rights and human freedoms and human dignity over and above any faith-based beliefs contrary to these Enlightenment values. If you can’t do that because it conflicts with some faith-based beliefs, then you simply do not deserve to have a say in the matter nor enjoy equal citizenship to those who do support equal citizenship. But to try to have it both ways – that your hypocritical faith-beliefs enhances one’s moral stature to have a determining say in matters of institutionalized public policy about equality, while relegating the Enlightenment value of equality to be less than the biblical value of misogyny and bigotry – reveals just how broken in reason is the religious mindset in matters of morality in public policy.
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August 7, 2011 at 9:44 am
TheUnrepublican
It just doesn’t get any more unconstitutional that that. To suggest that christians who interpret the Bible in it’s literal sense should not have equal citizenship is indicative of a severe disdain for the rights afforded christians by the Bill of Rights.
You also say that one should bring their morality to their religion, and not vice-versa. Hmm…
What morality? Mine, or yours? And whose is better? Perhaps we shall fight about it, eh? I would be willing to bet that you are a socialist.
You talk about equality, very well, let’s discuss it. You suggest a society where we rationalize and act in accordance with our own human goodness. If we are so good, how did things get this way? A bit off point, but a good example is in politics. Communism teaches that struggles and conflicts are the result of “laissez-faire”. But it is really the opposite. Our present state of supposed inequality is the result of human struggle. When you put animals in a cage, the battle will ensue to find the pecking order. How foolish to insinuate that the end result is the cause of the battles! People have a selfish nature. Communism would in fact be a regression that would eventually start the cycle again.
This is why communists hate religion, friend. It gets in the way of their delusions. It recognizes full well what we are…Animals. And teaches us to conform to the image of God – an ability that we do NOT have in and of ourselves. If we did, we wouldn’t need communism.
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August 7, 2011 at 10:15 am
The Arbourist
My apologies tildeb, I’m aware you can defend your position, but one cannot help but participate in this spectacle. :)
You suggest a society where we rationalize and act in accordance with our own human goodness.
That something you’re contemptuously pontificating about is called civilization.
Communism teaches that struggles and conflicts are the result of “laissez-faire”. But it is really the opposite.
You really don’t have any idea what you’re talking about do you? It is the Dunning-Kruger effect writ large.
When you put animals in a cage, the battle will ensue to find the pecking order. How foolish to insinuate that the end result is the cause of the battles!
Causality apparently, doesn’t matter either.
This is why communists hate religion, friend. It gets in the way of their delusions. It recognizes full well what we are…Animals. And teaches us to conform to the image of God – an ability that we do NOT have in and of ourselves.
If anyone else can find meaning in this particular word salad, please let me know.
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August 7, 2011 at 10:31 am
tildeb
I never suggested that christians should have their legal rights compromised; what I said was that if you are willing to compromise mine because of your faith-based belief that your morality is superior, then you’ve already agreed in principle that your concern is not about equal rights at all but undermining them. Why should I listen to you? Why should you have equal say about legal equalities when you act to subvert them? That’s why I write that you can’t have it both ways. Make up your mind. Believe what you want, but don’t think for a moment you can act on those beliefs if they privilege you in law over and above me or anyone else. From the First No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
[ed: I think this is where you wanted the tag closed]
Equality before the law is a fundamental principle in secular society. When you act to undermine that principle, you undermine the Constitution that guarantees your freedom to exercise your religion. IN other words, if you want to enjoy freedom OF religion, then you have to exercise it responsibly. That means if you are attempting to use your faith-based beliefs to undermine the legal equality of another, you are acting contrary to the First. Remember, the oath of service is to defend the Constitution from enemies foreign AND domestic. When you act to undermine legal equality, you meet the definition of a domestic enemy. That’s not simply my opinion but a very real issue for those who attempt to insert their theology into the public domain by supporting laws that privilege religious adherence or punish non religious adherence.
Calling this understanding of your founding documents that intentionally separate government from favouring any religious preference in public policy ‘communism’ is as absurd as it is offensive. Claiming to hitch the wagon of sedition to the horse of your preferred religion on the assumption of a higher moral standard derived from it is delusional. Prove your case and then argue from it. But I will not accept your case on the merits of your belief and I would be a fool to do so. With honest introspection, I think you will find that you edit your religious morality.. and quite properly so. With a bit of honest research, I think you’ll find not only very young children but many animals show highly moral behaviour without ever being exposed to the words of your preferred scripture. You must account for this if you are to build any case that your morality derives from some religious precepts rather than the very strong evidence contrary to this. Just as hint… communism has nothing to do with it.
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August 7, 2011 at 10:36 am
tildeb
Sorry. I failed to close the italics after the bold font. My bad.
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August 7, 2011 at 11:49 am
TheUnrepublican
Arbourist: “Communism teaches that struggles and conflicts are the result of “laissez-faire”. The more free the market, the greater the inequality. Is this not the general sentiment of communism? I don’t know what I am talking about for relaying an actual sentiment, or for proving it wrong?
Tildeb: If you are saying that one should be free to practice their religion so long as it doesn’t infringe on other people’s rights then we are in complete agreement.
Just remember that voicing an opinion – whether religiously inspired or not – does not constitute infringement, even if voiced by a politician.
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August 7, 2011 at 12:28 pm
tildeb
So what does that agreement look like in principle?
Words.
What does that agreement look like in practice?
Holding a day of prayer called for by the state’s governor and funded by taxpayers is not agreement. Nor is appointing young earth creationists (why are so many involved in the dental profession?) and religiously motivated history revisionists to chair state education boards for buying textbooks and mandating science curriculum. Nor is denying same sex marriage. Nor is paying for military chaplains. Nor is offering vouchers for religious education. Nor is denying abortion services. Nor is opening and closing public meetings with prayer. Nor is stamping currency with religious sentiments. Nor is altering the pledge of allegiance to the secular state include references to god. And so on. The assault to abuse government to extend favoured religious influence in the public domain is never ending.
Too often faith-based believers think their beliefs are equitable… right up until equality challenges a religious privilege. It is at that moment and that moment alone where we see whether or not there is agreement between principle and practice. We see whether or not a religious believer comes clean and either supports legal equality or does not, either understands the role of religious belief to belong properly to the private domain or does not, understands the state’s obligation to stay out of the business of private religious beliefs or does not. And when we see such a huge discrepancy between what average faith-based believers say they support (the country and its founding documents) and what they actually do support, we know there is a very important role for non believers to play in critical review of public policies that cross the religious line between private faith and public policy. Too often, believers simply see no line or consider their practical actions as merely extensions of faith-based opinions now divorced from the original principle.
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August 7, 2011 at 3:59 pm
TheUnrepublican
I totally and completely disagree.
So let me get this right…
Religion is okay, as long as:
1. It is not practiced openly by government personnel.
2. Is not in the worldview of ANYONE involved in education.
3. People keep it ENTIRELY to themselves.
4. Do not practice it anywhere near a government facility.
5. Do not provide for the spiritual needs of christian soldiers who cannot attend church as they are risking their lives in service to our country.
Are you serious?
First of all, to deny someone from a position on an education board on the basis of their religion would be unconstitutional. If, in your opinion, the number of creationists being appointed vs the number of atheists being appointed to the education board is unacceptable, then let me ask you this: Would you complain if it was the other way around? Uh, no. No, you would not.
What would you have the christian soldiers do who are dying for us? Deny them the rights that they are fighting to protect? If it is a violation to have chaplains – which it isn’t – would you deny them that on the basis of a technicality?
Also, what are say, students to do before class? If they want a student led prayer, then you cannot tell me with a straight fact that it is a violation. Likewise, people who are government personnel are NOT in violation simply by partaking in prayer before meetings. A violation would be to use their power to promote religion, and that is not the case, as for as that goes.
The fact of the matter is, and you KNOW I am right, is that the atheists are going to keep milking and making that line bigger and bigger, pushing and pushing – you will never stop, not until religion be outlawed on the basis that we are STATE SUBJECTS – separation of church and state, you know!
You have found a clause in the constitution and ferociously advance it to no end, and it is all based on your opinions – which you exalt above all else to the ruin of our nation.
*spit*
You know good and god damn well out founders would not have sided with you.
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August 7, 2011 at 6:00 pm
tildeb
Sorry for the confusion, TU; by ‘public’ domain I mean the institutions of government and policies issued from them. A public institution can be staffed by all kinds of religious believers… as long as they keep their personal religious beliefs from affecting the discharge of their public duties. By this I mean a local police officer needs to act responsibly as an agent of the court enforcing the law; what we don’t want is Ahmed using and abusing his office as an policeman to promote his religious beliefs as if they were the law. Ahmed can be a police officer only under the condition that he keep his religious beliefs to himself and discharge his duties as an agent of the court enforcing public law. I’m sure you can appreciate why.
But you need to see the same problem when it’s Officer Bob abusing his position to enforce his christian beliefs… even though you probably agree with those same beliefs. It’s simply not part of the job description for public officials and their staff to use the power of their public offices to favour any religious preference… be it islamic or christian or hindu or jainist or whatever. To do so is wrong. To do so is against the First.
The same argument applies to those in any public office. People can hold whatever private religious beliefs they want but to be a responsible government agent using the power of a public office legally MEANS that those beliefs are to remain private in the sense they do not interfere in any way the discharge of public duties so that the spirit of the First is maintained by EVERYONE: the government (the public domain) has no business privileging religious favouritism without undermining YOUR religious freedom. You, as a believer, have far more at stake in this issue than I as an atheist because I personally couldn’t care less what your personal religious beliefs are… right up until you abuse the public power placed in trust of public offices to affect MY right to equal treatment under the law. By allowing religious belief you happen to currently favour to be privileged by government in the public domain, you run the very real risk of supporting a religious agenda at some other time that curtails your own right (and the right of your children and their offspring) to believe what you (and they) want.
That so many religious believers utterly fail to recognize how they undermine their own freedom of religion in the name of their preferred religion is truly one of the great ironies of our age. You are setting the stage for government and various public domain officials to use your money to promote a religious ideology they personally favour – and one that you may not agree with like Ahmed’s – so that your freedom to believe what you want is directly threatened by the power of the public office they hold – like the polic officer’s.
Believers in the States must wake up to this growing problem and stop blaming atheists for pointing out the dismantling one of the great freedoms we share in the name of some divine respect. Religion has no place in the public domain and we have to turf out those who think it does. Believers are incredibly susceptible to these abusers of the public trust because they mistake their favouritism for some shared piety. That may be true in the short run but undermining another person’s religious freedom is not worth the price.
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August 7, 2011 at 7:40 pm
Alan Scott
This sure is a long and confused discussion . I think it boils down to our Atheist friends blaming Christian influence for banning gay marriage . Not that they need an excuse to bash Christianity .
How bout we go back to the founding of the country . You Canadians are welcome too. The Constitution established that there would be no State religion . Separation of Church and State actually was interpreted in later . Secular tradition was born. Now for you Atheists, show me where the non religious, secular of the founders ever approved of gay marriage ? I will leave out whether they approved of homosexuality itself . I’m sure you have some founders you suspect of being gay .
My point being, you do not just have a religious tradition of heterosexual exclusivity of marriage, you have more than 2 centuries of secular tradition of heterosexual marriage exclusivity . Until late in the 20th century I doubt even Atheists approved of gay marriage . I could be mistaken, but I do not recall a tradition of gay marriage even in anti religious Communist countries .
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August 8, 2011 at 12:01 am
Rob F
Every American wants their founders on their side, which is a rather empty position. I think this is a rather empty endeavor. Back then, the US was mostly agrarian and rural, far smaller, and newly independent. It was a vastly different place than it is today, and positions appropriate or paramount back then probably aren’t important or paramount today.
Whether or not American founder _____ approved of or did X, or disapproved of or did not do Y, is irrelevent as to whether X and Y are good or not. The American founders often had ignoble deeds (like ignoring women’s rights) and noble words. But it’s ridiculous to use this to argue against women’s suffrage or in favour of hypocrisy. Clearly, accepting or rejecting one of a person’s views in no way requires automatic acceptance or rejecting of any other of their views.
In addition, just because there is a tradition of doing X or not doing Y does not mean that that tradition must be maintained. For a long time there was no tradition of printed books, or of the internet. Arguing that the lack of any tradition of marriage equality justifies not adopting could be used the exact same way against books or the internet, or against anything that currently exists but at one time didn’t. However, no one would be convinced by such a fallacious appeal to tradition. The “no tradition of marriage equality” argument fails for the same reasons.
Also, I don’t see how firing a creationist from an education board is unconstitutional. Creationism/cdesign proponentism are false and are not valid lines of inquiry. One may well honestly believe those positions, but their beliefs aren’t credible. By trying to force them into places where they don’t belong, they are acting contrary to accepted scientific standards. In other words, they are incompetent. Last time I checked, incompetence ought to be a valid reason for firing somone.
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August 8, 2011 at 7:27 am
tildeb
I’m sorry for your confusion, AS. To sum up, my point is that the theology that supports legal inequality against gay marriage is anti-American.
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August 8, 2011 at 7:53 am
TheUnrepublican
Tildeb:
I am gay, and I will be the first to agree. For anyone to use their political power to advance their religion is unconstitutional. For them to allow their religion to influence how they respond to the public, however, is unavoidable. Although I will agree that it is unconstitutional by definition.
As long as you can differentiate between having a religion and using a religion, I do not see anything necessarily about your views that I disagree with.
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August 8, 2011 at 7:55 am
TheUnrepublican
Oh, hell no. The Stalinists were RABID homophobes. Good point, Alan.
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August 8, 2011 at 9:24 am
The Arbourist
My point being, you do not just have a religious tradition of heterosexual exclusivity of marriage, you have more than 2 centuries of secular tradition of heterosexual marriage exclusivity .
We’ve had some 2000(+) years of slavery while claiming to be civilized. Slavery, by your definition, could be considered a traditional practice. Should we continue with its practice?
I’m guessing the answer is probably no. Rob.F addressed this line of reasoning in his post, but I reiterate it again for because it is quite a common feature of traditional versus progressive type of debates.
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August 8, 2011 at 12:12 pm
TheUnrepublican
Even so, you can not lay the complete blame for the persecution of homosexuals at the feet of christians. Neither can you place on them the entire blame of slavery.
You pride yourself on being a rational person. As such, surely you can differentiate between a human problem, and a religious one.
Irrespective of religion, homophobia and slavery is a part of our ugly history.
Surely you can respect that truth.
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August 9, 2011 at 7:13 am
tildeb
Not entirely, no. But there is strong evidence that these discriminations have been supported by biblical scripture (see the video here on the slavery issue, for example), which then allows christians to argue that they are simply following divine orders to discriminate, that discrimination then is right and proper and moral because god says so. It is against this failure to condemn discrimination that very legitimate blame can be laid at the feet of those who support the discriminations on theological grounds. You make it sound as if this support is simply ‘historical’ of which some part will include the religious, rather than understand the historical reality that religious scripture has been (and continues to be in the case of legal discrimination against gays and lesbians) a major driver for excusing the practice of discrimination itself.
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