Just some highlights from Paula Kirby’s essay on Feminism. I’ve read it and concluded that she really has missed the point of what feminism is all about. The original document is here, and of course the deconstruction is at Jadehawk’s blog from which this excerpt originates.
[PK:}Let’s consider 1930s Germany for a moment. How did the Nazis gain popular support? By exploiting a sense of grievance post-Versailles, by continually telling the German people they’d been treated abominably, had their noses ground in the dust,been unfairly penalized, that they were the victims of an international, Jew-led conspiracy, that they needed to rise from the ashes and gain their revenge and their proper, god-ordained place in the world.
[JH:]Yeah, let’s consider this. And by “this”, I don’t actually mean the historical inaccuracies in this paragraph, because they’re not relevant just now. For starters, as Paula herself reluctantly admits in a later paragraph, it’s not actually a case of the Nazis “telling the German people they’d been treated abominably”, since the German people were well-aware of that fact (and a fact it certainly was), Nazis or no. But let’s consider the political situation in 1930′s Germany. Here we have an abysmally poor, systematically oppressed people, who end up becoming radicalized and a totalitarian state results. Happens all the fucking time. What’s the solution to the problem?
Well, according to Paula, it seems to be “Oh you silly Germans. Stop feeling oppressed and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps”, and “Don’t talk about systemic oppression, don’t try to eliminate oppression, and don’t ever dare publicly and openly argue with those who say there isn’t any. Because if you do, you’ll be propagating a victim mentality and also being Nazis yourself.” Where in the goddamn universe has being silent about systemic oppression and telling people to instead fix themselves ever worked?
The real solution to the existence of systemic victims is not cries of individualist empowerment, but deconstruction of the oppressive system.
The French learned this lesson, which is why WWII was followed by the creation of the Council of Europe and the EEC instead of another oppressive Treaty of Versailles.
[…]
[PK:]So there is an alternative, and it is this alternative that I would urge women to seize with both hands – whether we’re talking about how we interact in our jobs, in our social lives or in the atheist movement. And that alternative is to take responsibility for ourselves and our own success. To view ourselves as mature, capable adults who can take things in our stride, and can speak up appropriately. To really start believing that we can do whatever men can do. To stop seizing on excuses for staying quiet and submissive, stop blaming it on men or hierarchies or misogyny or, silliest of all, “privilege”, and start simply practising being more assertive.
[JH:]And the way to fight poverty is to stop “externalizing” the causes of poverty, and instead tell people to stop being so goddamn lazy and to view themselves as “mature, capable adults who can take things in our stride” and stop blaming their poverty on rich people or hierarchies or classism or “privilege”.
Libertarianism is such tiresome bullshit.
Anyway, she’s repeating the bullshit trope that non-libertarian feminists are saying that women aren’t capable of doing what men do. This is of course bullshit. Women are just as capable as men, and they are often far better able to deal with adversity since they don’t get shit handed to them on a silver platter and have to constantly fight against stupid sexist bullshit.
Men faced with even a fraction of the shit a woman who shares their other social statuses has to face tend to dissolve into incoherent puddles of self-pity rather quickly (see: MRA), because they lack the practice and have never acquired the requisite hardened skins. However, as noted above, being able to deal with stupid shit is not actually a good reason for stupid shit to exist. Plus, as everyone should realize, two people with identical ability but different stressloads will rather obviously not perform equally at the one task they have in common. All we’re trying to do is a)undo some of that damage of the extra stressload in the short term, and b)equalize the stressload.



19 comments
July 14, 2012 at 8:50 am
tildeb
I have great admiration for Paula’s clarity of thought embedded in an easy to read style in her writings. After reading her WEIT comment, my impression was that she argues we overcome biases and discrimination by doing, that women should stop spending so much time on whinging about being victims and simply do what others presume they cannot or should not do, that the strongest evidence we can have – and that women can show – is taken directly from reality. I do not think Paula is arguing that women are not subject to biases and discrimination; I think she’s advising us how to overcome them so we do not allow ourselves to empower and then define us.
I think this is very good advice.
In the same way that racism is defeated when race is no longer allowed power to affect considerations, so too will sexism be defeated when gender is no longer allowed power to affect considerations. And the best way to achieve this deconstruction of powerful and affective biases and discrimination is to disempower them by creating compelling evidence from reality that they are inaccurate. And, as Paula writes, this is best achieved by doing rather than complaining of victimhood. Jadehawk misses this central thesis altogether busy as she/he is deconstructing Paula’s trivial points with trivial counterpoints.
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July 14, 2012 at 1:26 pm
The Arbourist
we overcome biases and discrimination by doing, that women should stop spending so much time on whinging about being victims
Ah, so then the valid complaints of women should not be heard? Would you consider people of colour concerns about their treatment in society whinging and embracing victimhood?
simply do what others presume they cannot or should not do, that the strongest evidence we can have – and that women can show – is taken directly from reality.
So which reality are we talking about here, the patriarchally infused one that actively keeps women down, or one where we equality and if women just try hard enough they will be fine. Pulling themselves up by the bootstraps, just like the poor.
And, as Paula writes, this is best achieved by doing rather than complaining of victimhood.
And characterizing women fighting for their rights as whiners and blaming them for calling oppression out where they see it is the way to go? I think not. I’ll reproduce they key arguments that address this particular line of thinking –
The idea that the playing field is even close to being equal in terms of opportunity or power is what Kirby implies with her statement. It isn’t and won’t be until women fight for and wrest equality from the holders of the status quo, which Kirby and her prolix represent.
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July 15, 2012 at 6:24 am
tildeb
Arb, I know you are very passionate about women’s rights and freedoms, about leveling the playing field in law and opportunity and respect and so on. I am not arguing against any of this. What I’m saying is that my take of Kirby’s article was for more women to step up to the plate and deliver rather than sitting back and complaining. What they are complaining about is not the central issue (although seems to me to take up 95% of the responses); Kirby’s point is that we overcome them by doing. I happen to agree with that advice, which is not to say I think there not inequalities and power imbalances that are in need of being overcome but that when it comes to having more atheist women present at atheist conferences, a step forward would be to have more women willing to do so rather than fewer who use legitimate complaints about poor treatment as a reason. In other words, staying away solves nothing; confronting these issues head on by participants adversely affected carries a much more weight to help bring about necessary change.
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July 15, 2012 at 10:07 am
The Arbourist
Arb, I know you are very passionate about women’s rights and freedoms, about leveling the playing field in law and opportunity and respect and so on. I am not arguing against any of this.
Good.
What I’m saying is that my take of Kirby’s article was for more women to step up to the plate and deliver rather than sitting back and complaining.
And what I’m saying is that putting women in a double bind blind to the pervasive effects of privilege and sexism isn’t helping much. Allow me to illustrate. I encourage you to go to Suirauqa’s blog and look at some of the arguments presented there, this next bit is from there.
confronting these issues head on by participants adversely affected carries a much more weight to help bring about necessary change.
And thus a clearly stated anti-harassment policy would be a good thing? Am I reading you correctly here?
This is the first I’ve read of PK and, lest it not be obvious, I’m not impressed by the quality of her writing or her reasoning. If she displays talent in other areas perhaps she needs to port those over to dealing with the issues of the sexism and misogynistic attitudes that are prevalent in the atheist/skeptic community because what she is doing in this letter is not helping.
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July 15, 2012 at 12:28 pm
tildeb
Please remember that Paula’s responding to a specific problem in the skeptical community: why don’t more women accept speaking engagements? All she’s really saying here is that more women saying ‘Yes’ would do a great deal more good to change the atmosphere to a more gender neutral role than saying No because it’s someone else’s fault. That’s why Pamela Gay received a standing ovation just now at TAM for tackling the same issue of sexual harassment at these conferences head on. She couldn’t have done that – caused real effect and publicly aired legitimate grievances – by staying home and blaming others.
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July 17, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Jadehawk
Incorrect. She’s responding to a dearth of female speakers by projecting her experiences from the business-world onto it. She’s not presented any examples of a female skeptics refusing speaking engagements. And other than the women who’ve explicitly cancelled previously accepted engagements because of threats and similar, I’m not aware of this being a problem in the skeptics community, at all. The opposite was true until recently, in fact: women weren’t being asked, and they were complaining about not being asked.
what a boring strawman. these women who say no to speaking engagements and prefer whining ineffectually don’t exist. You and Kirby both promote the bullshit false dichotomy that those who want to see systemic changes aren’t “doing” anything other than complaining. it’s a lie. stop repeating it.
and yet, Kirby whines about the existence of the WIC, where those supposed “whiners” who “stay home” didn’t stay home and didn’t just say yes to a speaking engagement, but created one.
So again, stop the bull about how those who want systemic changes aren’t doing anything. you’re promoting a stupid lie when you do.
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July 17, 2012 at 3:14 pm
tildeb
Jadehawk, I suspect you will never appreciate the irony of your comment.
Here I am, an anonymous little blogger who bothered to take Dawkins to task for his response to the “Guys, don’t do that” complaint being told by exactly the kind of feminista Kirby complains about how I’m spreading and promoting stupid lies. Yes, a conference (Women in Secularism) was created to give voice to women over misogyny in the secular community. I think that’s great. What Kirby really raised was the question why was there a lack of new faces and voices at WIS (Women is Secularism) conference. Clearly this wasn’t because of misogynistic agents were hard at work but because more women need to step up. I agree with that. My straw man was to keep to those who might have stepped up but didn’t to be Kirby’s only point when in fact the issue she raised was a complaint that more women (and not just the usual well known bloggers) need to do something more than agree to complain (that, as a reader of many blogs written by these women, I am bored to tears about), which is why I mentioned Gay’s interesting contribution and audience reaction as an excellent example of a woman doing something more, something very positive, by addressing the issue directly and receiving a very positive response for her efforts.
You take my response to mean far more than it actually does, and in an extraordinarily negative and combative way by trying to malign both my character and integrity for daring to interpret Kirby’s response as positively as I can. Do I agree with everything she wrote? No. But I hold it in comparison to all the excellent writing she has done in the service of promoting secularism and grant that her point – small as it may be – seems to bring forth a very typical and distasteful feminine response of eating our own young. I see this tendency raise its ugly head far too often in teaching and nursing and I am greatly disappointed that it seems to be happening in the secular movement over what I see as a relatively trivial difference of opinion blown up into a major issue that sidelines a beneficial voice like Thunderfoot in its blast zone. This – not my trivial comments and your over-the-top response to it – is exactly the kind of stupidity Kirby is writing about writ large.
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July 17, 2012 at 7:26 pm
Jadehawk
I cannot imagine why you think this is relevant to the topic at hand.
well, you are.
she didn’t raise a question, she asserted that this was so and that this was a problem. without actually being able to make that assertion based on evidence, since she wasn’t there and therefore cannot know about how much networking to promote more and newer speakers was being done.
and there you are again, promoting the lie that the women Kirby whined about only “complain”, instead of acting.
no one’s forcing you to read all or any of it, you know?
what are you, some sort of anti-internet luddite? there’s no difference between writing what Gay said in a blog and saying it out loud at a conference. And I laugh at the implication that the women Kirby whines at aren’t doing exactly the same thing that Gay did (giving speeches about harassment). Because they do, and Kirby whines about them doing that, too.
unlikely, but you’re welcome to support that claim with some evidence.
I’m doing neither, actually. I’m merely pointing out that you’re helping promote a lie. Keep on doing it, even after I’ve explained to you how you’re doing this and what claim of Kirby’s is a consciously promoted falsehood, and I’ll actually be forced to accept that you’re not just inadvertently promoting that lie, but that you yourself are a liar for whatever your idiosyncratic reason may be.
argument from authority is both boring and a fallacy.
sexist gender stereotypes FTL. Also, complete non sequitur. do you know what “eating your young” even means…? Because it more accurately describes the behavior of Kirby than it does anyone else’s.
you think the question whether women are systemically disadvantaged or whether it’s all their own fault to be “minor”?
beneficial to what? all he’s good for is telling us over and over how stupid creationists are. And considering that creationists haven’t come up with a new argument in years, how is that not more boring than figuring out how to make atheism/secularism more attractive to a more diverse crowd?
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July 17, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Jadehawk
oh, and one more thing. It’s absolutely absurd to say that TF has been “sidelined”. He has not lost anything he didn’t have before getting invited and then fired from FTB. Was he “sidelined” before he was ever writing at FTB, to begin with?
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July 18, 2012 at 7:10 am
tildeb
Yeah, as I thought, you missed the irony. No surprise there.
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July 21, 2012 at 12:18 pm
VR Kaine
“the issue she raised was a complaint that more women (and not just the usual well known bloggers) need to do something more than agree to complain”
I think this is a great point and one that applies to a wide array of subjects. No matter what the topic or how right one might be, people eventually tune out if all there is is complaining. Unfortunately, however, many bloggers think that complaining equals some sort of action or confuse it with having an actual “voice”.
No one seems to be backing you here, Tildeb, so I will (for what it’s worth!) To me you seem to be supporting “Step up and actually do something” instead of “hide behind blogs/pseudonyms and just bitch about things”, and for that you’ll have my support any day. :)
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July 21, 2012 at 1:21 pm
The Arbourist
Let me just replay the important part of the exchange for you.
T:What Kirby really raised was the question why was there a lack of new faces and voices at WIS (Women is Secularism) conference.
JH:she didn’t raise a question, she asserted that this was so and that this was a problem. without actually being able to make that assertion based on evidence, since she wasn’t there and therefore cannot know about how much networking to promote more and newer speakers was being done.
T:when in fact the issue she raised was a complaint that more women (and not just the usual well known bloggers) need to do something more than agree to complain
JH:and there you are again, promoting the lie that the women Kirby whined about only “complain”, instead of acting.
(that, as a reader of many blogs written by these women, I am bored to tears about)
You what is neat about confirmation bias? You get to see the things you agree with *everywhere* and thus need your attention. The idea that bloggers complain is nothing particularly new under the sun and probably doesn’t merit a lot of commentary. What also isn’t new is that idea that women are characterized as serial complainers and whiners to exclude them from debate and serious discussion. *You* didn’t explicitly say that, so cookie for you.
The central point is that Kirby was talking out of her ass making claims not based on evidence and opining further on her made up bullcookery. So thank you for complaining about the tone rather than the substance of what is actually being argued.
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July 21, 2012 at 3:22 pm
tildeb
As I wrote in my first comment was,
In the same way that racism is defeated when race is no longer allowed power to affect considerations, so too will sexism be defeated when gender is no longer allowed power to affect considerations. And the best way to achieve this deconstruction of powerful and affective biases and discrimination is to disempower them by creating compelling evidence from reality that they are inaccurate.
Why is this point being ignored? Well, because it’s more important to vilify Kirby. That’s the goal. That I continue to think well of Kirby, that I take away the message that she opines that more fresh voices of women need to be heard, is bulldozed in favour of deconstructing her piece to show that it is an unfair accusation for this specific event, that it criticizes specific bloggers for continuing to make the “Guy, don’t do that” issue something worthwhile to write on and on and on about. I think this is a fine example of missing the forest for the trees in that those who proclaim unwavering support for gender equality continue to empower gender issues. This has the effect of making gender discrimination an ongoing issue worth blogging about. That’s a tactical error even if it seems to be justified.
No matter how accurate the complaints may be, no matter how many feelings may be truly and unfairly hurt, no matter how correct are the accusations of gender bias, at some point we need to stop thinking a solution comes when everyone is so aware of offending that they say nothing rather than what I suggest works best: disempowering the issue entirely by doing without regard to gender. Only then, I think, will gender bias fade into oblivion. That point will not be reached by piling on of anyone who dares to think gender bias and discrimination is less than a vital issue in need of sustained attention. And attacking people like I am who carry out my days treating others by the quality of their character as the individuals they are without regard to their gonads is simply a very poor strategy if one honestly wants to disempower gender bias and discrimination. This point I’m making is not an attack against women nor casts me as a villain but an example to others who wish to be treated fairly with the respect their character earns.
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July 22, 2012 at 8:03 am
The Arbourist
Is racism defeated though? We are not talking as if we are in a post-racist society right? Racism runs deep and is pervasive in the make up of society.
When does disempowering an issue not look like silencing people’s concerns? This is an important point because often the people who are being discriminated against are told by their oppressors that this problem has been “handled” and it it time to move on. I suggest that when we hear from the targets of racism/sexism etc, that it is “handled” then the issue at hand can be put to rest.
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July 22, 2012 at 5:36 pm
tildeb
Story (bear with me):
My (very evangelical christian) friend and family (two young girls) were traveling through South Carolina/Georgia. Very hot weather. Stayed at a hotel with both an indoor and outdoor pool. Went to room and changed into swimsuits. Indoor pool very busy, outdoor hardly at all. Headed outside. A Concerned Person pulled friend aside and told him that the outside pool was for blacks. Friend smiled, and family went and swam in outside pool. Girls played with a few other girls. Had a good time. Made some new friends. They headed back inside, saw the Concerned Person look at him and shake his head in disappointment, so he stopped and went over to him. He’s a very friendly guy, very charming. He explained that he comes from a really rich place. Not so much wealthy with big homes and cars like around these parts but really great neighbours – originally from all over the world. Really quite rich that way. A neighbour – a judge – for example, took his two girls to Paris for a couple of weeks earlier in the summer to help them with their French and what an adventure they had. Had the Concerned Person ever been to Partis? No? Neither had he. Those girls are just so lucky and they don;t even know it. Now this judge, this really nice woman, was from Lebanon originally – a single woman, who had fled Lebanon back in the ’80s had become a superior court judge – something she probably couldn’t have become if she had stayed in Lebanon. You see, where he comes from, my friend went on to say, there is no such thing as ‘coloured’ – there’s just ‘people’ – most good, a few bad – and hoped that in this part of the world someday they could say the same about all their neighbours, finding riches close to home, so to speak. Well, the Concerned Fellow seemed a bit mollified so just before taking his leave, he said sometimes all it takes to help build such a place is to go for a swim on a hot day.
When does disempowering an issue not look like silencing people’s concerns?
Well, this is just it. Disempowering is not necessarily an action at all (other than advocating strongly to support equality laws and criticizing double standards). It is a practice of treating people without concern for their gender on issues that have everything to do with ability and excellence. In a sense, it’s a non action, a way of eliminating gender altogether as any kind of meaningful framework (except where it must be… like women’s specific health issues, men’s specific reproductive therapies, etc.). As soon as we allow gender to be an issue where equality and ability and excellence are sidetracked into gender concerns, then we’re not helping the cause of bringing about ending gender discrimination; rather we are empowering it (even when the cause seems just, as it trivially is in the case with Kirby). Take the good stuff, leave the silly, leave the unfair criticism, which is what I’ve tried to do with the Kirby article. I take away only what is useful and leave the complaining behind: more of us need to simply step up and do regardless of gender bashing, of receiving obnoxious insinuations about gender. Expose the shit, by all means, but then leave it there to create its own unpleasant stink, rather than spend so much energy on complaining about it. The “Guys, don’t do that” should have ended right there and then once the advice was presented. But to make it into such an ongoing issue about atheist conferences I don’t think serves neutralizing gender discrimination at them but keeps the pot simmering.
Respect is earned by doing, and ignoring gender discrimination even when it’s there and carrying on regardless earns respect from people whose opinions matter. I’ve seen it in the military and I’ve seen it on the job and I’ve seen it in families. Doing works.
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July 22, 2012 at 7:06 pm
VR Kaine
Promoting action is less a “confirmation bias” and more a way of life and simply how things get done. Also, there’s a difference between complaining and being a serial complainer, and it goes to tildeb’s point about action.
I look less at what someone is saying and more why they are saying it. It’s not hard to tell where a person is coming from when they complain about something – is it from a place of connection, growth, contribution? If so, then it can lead to positive action and results. If not, then all that comes out of it is negative.
Unfortunately I think that difference gets lost as many people are on autopilot and fail to ever make that distinction, and ultimately, the cause gets lost or at least wrapped around the axle as we’ve seen with both the pro-Feminism and anti-Racism movements post people like Steinem and King.
Bottom line is complainers come from of a place of resourcelessness and weakness which some may identify and comiserate with, but ultimately no one follows. On the other hand, leaders come from a place of resourcefulness and strength where there’s simply no room, time, or need to complain and it’s leadership, not complaining (losership) that changes things and gets things done.
Tildeb stepped up (alone) and supported a call for action which touched on leadership qualities that I believe deserve to be supported so yes, in a sense one could say that I was speaking to the tone as I thought the initial attacks against her came from a loser place with loser intentions, and felt that she shouldn’t get hammered on just because she prefers action over blabbing – regardless of the topic. That was all. :)
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July 25, 2012 at 12:48 pm
The Arbourist
I think I understand where you are coming from Tildeb. I can appreciate the frustration at the furor created about seemingly trivial occurrences. I think what really broke the EG and TF episodes wide open was the severe push-back by atheist-skeptics who though the entire episodes were bunk and concluded things were great and nothing should change.
See the backlash at Pharyngula here,here, here… if you have time peruse the comments. The amount of hatred directed against women is quite astonishing.
People do learn by watching a good example and I commend you for it, but also, people learn by reading and educating themselves by watching the arguments play out and learning second hand what is being argued any why it is so contentious.
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July 25, 2012 at 2:10 pm
The Arbourist
An article we can both agree on? :)
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July 25, 2012 at 5:49 pm
tildeb
Absolutely.
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