Atheism vs. Atheism Plus – Guess Where DWR plants her Standard?

I stole the comic from Pharyngula. :) I agree with you bleat, not associating with the sexists, bigots and racists is nice. :)

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So much for critical thinking….

You sound kinda bitter SBM, and I’m not sure why. Atheism+ membership is voluntary. There is no stricture saying this particular subset of atheist thought is better than others. What it does acknowledge is real, valid, empirically based social justice views and works to promote them.

Do you think we can do something about discrimination against men as well?

Statements like the quoted above are likely to get met with some disapprobation because they often indicate a key knowledge deficit in basic nomenclature/substance of what taking a stand for social justice is. Discrimination of men does happen and it is worthy of discussion, however if the discussion space has been centered on the systemic problem of patriarchal oppression and privilege, coming in and saying “what about the menz?” is the wrong statement at the wrong time.

It is very difficult to discuss the oppressed classes(women, PoC, homosexual) points of view when the dominant (white men, male, hetrosexual) narrative already has built in rhetorical features that by default are minimizing, silencing and castigating toward minority narratives. (Relate this to discussing non belief with the religions, it is very frustrating because of all the defenses they have built into their default worldview) Not being aware of this feature of cultural discourse *is* derailing because you are espousing the narrative of the dominant class which exists to keep discourse and people where they are – thus “what about the menz” comments are looked on rather poorly in social justice/feminist circles.

So much for critical thinking….

So in the example you provided the dig you ended with would, properly, be at yourself because the onus is on you to educate yourself about privilege, patriarchy and racism.

Thus, after doing the homework (or not), then you can decide whether to grace Atheism+ with your presence or not, as mentioned earlier, membership is voluntary and is based on the idea that social justice is a key part to making Atheism work in society. People who believe that this is important will be in A+, if you don’t think that social justice issues are important, then don’t join.

It is that easy.

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Dozens, if not hundreds, of examples on the internet demonstrate that the founding members of A+ think quite the opposite. Educate yourself.

And they are forcing you to partake in their brand of Atheism how? Oh cupcake, this is going to be all about you and your issues isn’t it.

Really? Because when I’ve presented real, valid, empirically based social justice issues pertaining to men, the response is unfailingly dismissive.

You know how silly christians in the US sound when they say they are being persecuted by angry atheists? This is where you are now. Because if you can’t get the time of day for men’s issues in this one corner of the internet you are being oppressed.

The internets are far and wide friend and in most of those spaces male-centric thoughts and concerns dominate. It might be wise to go to those venues so your concerns can get a proper airing.

No. When the “discussion space” is continually centered on “patriarchal oppression” and “privilege”, and denies any existing female privilege, then it is absolutely time to step in with some facts to counter feminist dogma and mythology.

Ah, well. This is a good tell that A+ isn’t for you. Social justice and feminism are key parts of A+, if you’re not okay with those ideas you definitely shouldn’t join, especially when you’re attempting to counter feminist dogma and mythology.

I’m very well educated, thank you,

Actually you’re not if you’re arguing about the existence of “female privilege” (hint: its like arguing about black privilege or reverse racism which makes you look decidedly ignorant).

Perhaps after you learn something about men’s issues you’ll be able to explain to me how A+ can claim to address social justice issues while ignoring and dismissing 50% of the worlds population.

*lolsob* forever. No, cupcake that is not how it works. The A+ is about correcting the imbalance and moving toward equality, the playing field is not even now, far from it. But let’s not go further that than because explaining social justice and feminism to you isn’t my job (I only do that for every second dude I talk with on the net, and you’re not it, sorry).

Let’s just say that I highly doubt that you’ve applied *any* of the formidable critical thinking skills you highly value about yourself to this topic. What you’ve *shown* me is an uneducated, biased and thoroughly uncharitable set of arguments against the social justice/feminist aspects of A+. Kinda like how creationists argue with atheists – the parallels are fascinating.

So, when you have some arguments that stand up to the best and most powerful versions of what you are arguing against (you know how well-educated people argue) please come back and we can discuss them; because right now we’re at the “angry-dude who doesn’t get it” whinging phase and it most tiresome.

If A+ truly was concerned with egalitarian social issues, I and many others would join. But as long as it is merely feminism by another name, then I’ll oppose it as I do all bigotry.

It must be rough living in the persecuted majority. Campaign as vigourously as you’d like against what you perceive as “feminist bigotry”(see reverse-racism), but you’ll find no purchase here (especially in the baseless whinging phase that you’re currently occupying).

And again, membership in A+ is completely voluntary no one is forcing you to join. Only those who think that social justice and feminism are worthy causes are joining A+, if you’re not down with that, cool.

Keep calm and carry on.

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@bismarket

Can’t we just forget about them & concentrate on important stuff like stopping young girls from being put to Death in Pakistan for “Supposedly” burning a Koran, or does anyone REALLY consider this fluff to be more urgent?

Telling people what there priorities should be is kinda of a jerkish move no? Anyways, ignoring the common trope of minorities being told by others what they should “really” be focused on, how does one group within Atheism identifying the need to embrace and act upon social justice affect the movement as a whole? If anything a more diverse movement is more robust and able to meet a greater variety of challenges.

Much of the heat and light generated over the whole A+ movement is due to people feeling the need to dump on or fix, a completely voluntary sub-group of Atheism. Problem solved if people would follow this pro-tip: If you disagree with A+, don’t join it.

As said earlier in thread, it really is that easy. Live and let live, ships passing in the night all of that sorta thing.

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Acknowledging and dealing with your privilege is a tough step to take. It means reevaluating how you act and how you think, not an easy process by any standard. While some once alerted to what is going on make the effort to change, others double down and defend the status-quo even more vigourously.

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@SBM

Dismissive much? I suppose if you don’t have a real argument, or you feel threatened by the argument I’m presenting, then that is to be expected.

Now why would I want to argue with you when you have repeatedly demonstrated a decidedly toxic level of uncharitable behaviour? Your hackles are up, you are in defensive attack mode and certainly not open to different points of view. So why engage? Do you actually think that your responses are anything out of the ordinary? I’m sorry to break it to you cupcake but the special just isn’t in your snowflake today.

But actually, my social awareness encompasses all genders.

What a load of hooey. If you knew sweet-frack about social awareness you would understand what privilege and discrimination are and the power gradient inherent in society. You have demonstrated *repeatedly* a supernovae grade level of ignorance of the feminist theory you purport to oppose. You are guilty of whinging, not doing your homework and uncharitable behaviour a far cry from the critical though you lament about in your original comment.

Atheism+ is all about YOU and YOUR ISSUES isn’t it?

Lol. Mirroring my commentary while inserting your specious nonsense illustrates a distinct lack of argumentative prowess. Is your secret weapon I am rubber and you’re glue what you say bounces off me and sticks to you? – facile but seemingly at your particular level.

Wrong. Women actually outnumber men in participation in blogs and social websites. Educate yourself.

Yes because the internets are definitely a female dominated sexism free safe space. You’re just fishing now – looking for something to say “I win” with. Do try and stick to the topic at hand.

I asked you to explain how A+ can claim to be egalitarian while ignoring men’s issues, and you responded again with dismissiveness.

No kidding, its almost like I had made a polite request for you to do some research and try for a charitable interpretation of the position you have decided to argue against. But you didn’t, and most likely won’t because learning seems to be a little to hard for you, again you’re the unlucky second dude who I’m not going to spend the time educating on how feminism, patriarchy and privilege work. They were linked previously, do try to read for comprehension.

But you are correct. The playing field is not even or balanced. I bet I can name two instances of injustice and discrimination against men for every one that you can name against women. Do you accept the challenge?

Yes, I am correct thank you for that one ray of intelligence you’ve allowed to shine through your unenlightened discourse. Are you really going to say that men are more discriminated against than women? Really? I can see why you were banned from the A+ forums, you decidedly miss the point, fail to read/do your homework and most certainly fail to be charitable to the opposing side.

A rather transparent way of admitting that you can’t defend your beliefs.

Dude, why would I bother? You argue with neither honesty or integrity. Here is where you get to claim your victory in all your dudely argumentative(?) prowess. Congratulations. :)

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I don’t care a whit about feminist theory. I’m concerned with feminist fact. My primary point is that feminism’s claim to be egalitarian is a lie. I’ve demonstrated as much. Therefor feminist theory is a lie.

My my, it is nice to see the MRA in you.

“Are you really going to say that men are more discriminated against than women? Really?”
Yes. And I’m prepared to defend that position. So are you up to the challenge I issued before or not?

I’m guessing you’re not.

Nope, as I said before discussing 101 level issues is something I do with every second dude. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you won’t do your homework, learn or be charitable. Thus you are a waste of time and anymore effort on my part. I am feeling kind though so here is your homework.

I bet I can name two instances of injustice and discrimination against men for every one that you can name against women.

If you can identify why this statement is the crux of why I won’t engage with you, you’ll get a cookie, not to mention you’ll have a clue why you get the reactions the way you do. You earned a week vacation from here to do your homework. If you can come up with a reasonable response by next Sunday maybe we can actually talk. Or don’t. I’m good with that either way.

Is that the manosphere I hear calling, why yes it is…and its for you! They would love to hear about your awesome take down of feminism and the rest of the really important things you have to say.

Enjoy your vacation.

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@bismarket

I would suggest that the recent actions by the folk at FtB should be evidence that it’s not good enough that we just don’t join them, it’s clear that they see anyone who is outside the clique they have created is seen as the enemy & will be attacked.

FTB is a large conglomerate of people writing on many topics. What were the sentiments that led you to the conclusion that they are creating a clique? (I went and checked a few of the bigger names, I didn’t find much in the way of in/out group establishment.)

It is only a safe place for them to venture out from & attack others while safe in the knowledge that back home they are protected from any dissenting views or even criticism.

I’m guessing it would have to be the nature of the dissenting views and/or the criticism. I’m hypothesizing that criticism regarding 101 levels of methodology are not warmly received.

Personally i think they’re a worthless bunch of hypocrites & have more in common with certain religious groups than the Atheists they claim to be & presume to represent.☮

I’m pretty sure they are cool with that as membership in A+ is completely voluntary. If the social justice/feminism angle in addition to atheism isn’t your bag, then ignore the Aplusers, keep calm and carry on.

Here though at DWR, feminism and social justice along with atheism is our bag, hence our identification with what A+ is all about.

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@Bismarket

I would prefer it if you could try not to insinuate that unless you belong with/to A+ you can’t really be interested in feminism and social justice.

Rather than insinuate what others are not the A+ is designed to designate what Iam interested in. If you’re not happy with A+’s stated goals, then don’t identify with them. It really is that easy.

I have seen a lot of talk on Blogs etc’ but little stuff achieved IRL

Errr…it is the blogosphere lotsa talk and little end result is the norm.

except damage to those i would consider allies & think the only reason those people were attacked was because they didn’t agree with your methods &/or attitude & i agree with them.

We’re going to have to agree on whether important stuff happens on the internet or not, as it would seem it holds a bifurcated value for you of being not important in RL but at the same time capable of serious damage and implications via attacking other people.

Your even starting to sound like those religious types that are so sure that they have the “Only way”.

Really? I have not seen that at all. On this particular thread it has been a labour of trying to get people to engage their critical thinking skills on issues that are important in society – patriarchy, privilege, rape culture etc, are all pertinent problems that deserve attention. As an atheist I have used my critical faculties to see that believing in magic books and fairy tales is waste of time, applying these same critical faculties to social justice concerns and feminism is just a natural extension of what having a reasoned platform to contemplate life is about for me.

Nothing stated here has taken away (or really even added to) from the Atheist movement, DWR is certainly not a bastion of the atheist nexus holding back the tide of religious B.S that threatens to choke the very life from Reason and Rationality (although it would be cool if it was).

Thus concluding, along with my reasoned defense of being godless, I hold the radical notion that women are people too and thus when I see misogyny, sexism and all the other fun effects of Patriarchy in action I do what I can to bring the noise and call that shite out, because it has no place in a rational, civilized society.

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@SBM – (from sept 22 – 5:30pm)

I asked you to explain how A+ can claim to be egalitarian while ignoring men’s issues, and you responded again with dismissiveness.

Okay, you’ve said you have done your homework and looked and carefully studied the links I provided for you.

Given the power gradient in society, with white men at the top and women of colour at the bottom trying to frame any sort of egalitarian concerns with specific incidences is ludicrous. And here is why -this is what you said:

I bet I can name two instances of injustice and discrimination against men for every one that you can name against women.

The dominant class is not oppressed by the subordinate class as a whole in society. What you are doing is like pointing to affirmative action and saying – damn look at all those black people they have got it so good, just look at all of them do so well. Yet, if you look at the structural features of society, another picture emerges, one of systematic racism and discrimination, on every level.

Asking who can make the longer list of injustices while ignoring the structure of society shows a keen lack of understanding of how the systematic features of society such as racism and patriarchy work.

Fortunately, you’ve done your homework and can see where I’m coming from right? Right?

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@SBM

Now its my turn to educate you.

I’m sure it will be illuminating.

[Arb]“Given the power gradient in society, with white men at the top and women of colour at the bottom trying to frame any sort of egalitarian concerns with specific incidences is ludicrous.”

[SBM] Feminists such as yourself love to portray men as holding all the positions of power, as if ranking 10 random men and 10 random women would yield something like this:

Let’s just stop there. How is random sample of 10(!) people indicative of anything? You bray about lack of evidence being presented and then choose to begin *your* arguments with hypothetical nonsense?

as if all men had dominance over all women in your so-called “patriarchal society”.

You’ve said you’ve followed the links and done the reading. It is obvious that you have not. You’re just making stuff up now based on your particular twisted version of what patriarchy is and how it works in society.

The wealthiest individuals are men, and the most impoverished individuals are men.

This is factually incorrect, and thus arguments based on this idea are also incorrect. Women are the most impoverished, in America and the world over. Consider –

What all those statistics add up to is that more than 17 million women were living in poverty last year, compared with 12.6 million men. As usual, things were worse for older women; twice as many women over 65 were living in poverty, compared with men.

And those numbers just represented the population-wide average. For Hispanic and black women, the poverty rate increased even faster and rose higher—to 25 percent for Hispanic women and to 25.6 percent for black women.

[SBM] Those with the highest paying jobs are men, and those with the lowest paying, least desirable jobs are also men.

Wow. Completely wrong again.

Key Findings
Poverty rates generally stabilized in 2011 after several
years of increases, as the economy slowly recovered from
the Great Recession that began in late 2007 – but that left
poverty among women and children at or near historically
high levels. Poverty rates for all groups of women were
higher than for their male counterparts. The gender wage
gap persisted, undermining women’s ability to support
themselves and their families.

• Poverty rates for all groups of women in 2011 were
substantially higher than for their male counterparts.
The poverty rate for men was 10.9 percent in 2011,
statistically indistinguishable from the rate in 2010
(11.2 percent) but a statistically significant increase
from 7.7 percent in 2000.

[SBM] So your statement that “The dominant class is not oppressed by the subordinate class as a whole in society.” fails for the simple reason that men, as a group, are NOT the dominant class in society.

I’m not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but considering that your other assumptions have been proven to be baseless, we can assume that this statement is also false –

The news on women’s earnings was just as dismal. “Women working full-time year-round continued to be paid only 77 cents for every dollar paid to their male counterparts,” reported the NWLC.

“The wage gap, which has been stuck at 77 cents for the last three years, has been virtually stagnant over the last decade and means an average of more than $10,000 in lost wages for women each year,” said Fatima Goss Graves, NWLC’s vice president of education and employment. “Nearly 40 percent of mothers are primary breadwinners today. In these difficult times, no family can afford women’s salaries to be discounted.”

So yes, there is a power gradient in society, and men are at the top and women of colour at the bottom.

Therefore, it is perfectly valid to compare injustices suffered or imposed upon each gender

This, like any conclusion based on faulty premises must also be false.

[SBM] And trying to compare the discrimination you experience as a woman to the discrimination people of color have and continue to experience is pretty damn shameful. I’d avoid that comparison if I were you, because it frankly does not help your case.

Given your discernible lack of argumentative prowess, I’m not inclined to take your advice.

Comparing racism and sexism is one the most powerful ways to illustrate to dudes like yourself “who just don’t see it” that systematic institutionalized sexism exists and is rampant in society.

[Arb:]“Asking who can make the longer list of injustices while ignoring the structure of society shows a keen lack of understanding of how the systematic features of society such as racism and patriarchy work.”
[SBM:]No, its asking to begin a discussion with actual facts which, contrary to your assertion, IS the first step towards rational analysis.

Oh you mean like pulling random samples out of your ass and then basing arguments on them? That is craptacular argumentation at its finest. Do you have any idea what rationality is, I’m guessing you don’t because to argue rationally…heck even coherently you need to bring some sort of proof to the table and support it with evidence. You make the positive claim that men are over-represented at the top and bottom of society – show me the evidence that backs you claim, further more show me how that is relevant in light of that women still make up the majority of the impoverished in society in economic and social terms (hint: its in the links to the US Census).

because I am absolutely confident that the amount of discrimination they claim is almost entirely unjustified.

That is because you conveniently ignore facts. Wow, I get to entreat you to do your homework *again* because your comprehension in this subject is so poor. Learn about social stratification and the historical implications and conclusions that have been drawn – take a a sociology 101 class, it would do wonders for you, honest.

[SBM] I’m asking you to back that up with facts. If you’re not up to the task, don’t feel bad. I haven’t found any other feminists who can engage in rational reality-based argument either.

I have. I would speculate that “other feminists” have much less patience that I because of your propensity to ignore arguments, facts and not do your homework.

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