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Smells like 1984…
“Identity has become the axis of so much university activism because, for all the radical posturing associated with it, identity politics does not threaten the established order of society. It promotes a moralistic and self-indulgent anti-politics, where a person’s use of language and the purity of their thinking matters more than confronting collectively the material conditions and social relations under which they are forced to live. It creates a simulation of political struggle – one that doesn’t merely fail to challenge the material inequality and unfreedom of late capitalism, but fundamentally aligns with the dynamics and interests of its atomised, spectacle-driven society. It is a perfect mirror of consumerism, playing-upon the individual’s desires for real freedom, only to perpetuate and prettify the conditions of their alienation.”
Control the language, control the people. Look how far we’ve fallen – stating woman = adult human female is suddenly a radical act with the potential of ruining lives/careers.
The following is an exchange on tumblr between littlepumkinprincess and auntiewanda. I have changed the formatting a bit for the sake of readability, but their words and ideas remain the same. Many of the arguments that occur between gender critical feminists and trans-advocates play out in this exchange. It is certainly not an exhaustive collection of all the point/counter-points that exist but rather it illustrates a cross-section of what many interactions happen to look like.
Discussions of this nature tend to be controversial, so a reminder here to please be civil and respectful in the comment section.
“I’m not advocating violence against TERF’s but I am saying y’all need to stop playing the victim when you’re named that because you treat transgender people like shit, you don’t need special treatment because people called you out on that.”
The criteria for “treating like shit” seems to be “not agreeing with”.
And by “not agreeing with” you mean misgendering them, mentally and physically abusing them, excluding them in feminism, denying them human rights.
Okay, saying to a transwoman “I don’t agree you’re a woman” is physical abuse how? And also mental abuse how? Being upset at someone doesn’t automatically mean they’re mentally abusing you.
I don’t exclude transgender people from feminism, I apply feminism to the concept the same way I do anything else, and it comes up sexist.
Also how is not agreeing with someone that they are a thing they demonstrably aren’t a human rights issue? And why does it seem to be a double standard for transgender people? Or is Rachel Dolezal being mentally abused and denied human rights when people say she’s not what she claims?
When you say a transwoman isn’t a woman this leads people to believe it’s a ‘man in disguise’ and they need to protect poor women from them! See: transgender bathroom issues. This is the same belief system that allows people to think that physical abuse is okay, and just because you’re not doing it yourself doesn’t mean you’re not advocating that system.
How is demanding equal rights for genders sexist? Seeing as they’re women, I don’t see how it’s sexist considering feminism is the equality of men and women.
Gender dysphoria has proven that trans people are what they say they are, so idk how you can even say demonstrably. It’s a human rights issue because they’re treated as lesser than: they’re getting murdered at large rates, for example. Rachel is not mentally ill, she does it to cheat a system that’s there to help people who need it. There’s no proven racial dysphoria. Transgender people are genuinely who they say they are. Not to mention many parents try to ‘fix’ it by forcing them to be who they don’t feel they are and it leads to depression and suicide. Even IF you don’t believe them why does that mean you get to treat them like shit? I’m just curious, like you seem to believe just because you don’t agree with their lifestyle means you get to treat them like that when they aren’t harming anyone by living that way. That’s the same shit pro lifers do.
> When you say a transwoman isn’t a woman this leads people to believe it’s a ‘man in disguise’ and they need to protect poor women from them! See: transgender bathroom issues.
The issue with codifying use of “preferred” bathrooms, changing facilities etc. into law is more if the only criteria for a biologically male person to gain access to a female designated facility is for him to say “I am a woman” you’re exposing women to increased risk of predators.
Such as in the Christopher Hambrook case where a serial rapist gained access to two women’s shelters for prolong periods of time and sexually assaulted two women (that we know of) and all he had to do was claim to be a transwoman and they could not legally turn him away.
Plenty of transwomen who “just need to pee” already do so, are in and out of the women’s restroom with no issue. Why the hell should a legal loophole be created for predators to exploit?
> This is the same belief system that allows people to think that physical abuse is okay,
That’s a pretty big leap in logic there.
> How is demanding equal rights for genders sexist? Seeing as they’re women, I don’t see how it’s sexist considering feminism is the equality of men and women.
Transgender is a sexist concept in that it that operates on the belief that the socially constructed gender roles for the sexes are inherent to the sexes.
> Gender dysphoria has proven that trans people are what they say they are
How? People sincerely believe things that aren’t true all the time.
> so idk how you can even say demonstrably
It’s pretty easy to prove which sex someone is.
> Rachel is not mentally ill, she does it to cheat a system that’s there to help people who need it
Rachel Dolezal claims she’s always felt like she’s black, ever since she was a child. She identifies as black, she says what she does isn’t blackface. She says whiteness doesn’t describe her. So is she mentally ill or is her identity authentic? I mean she managed to become head of a local NAACP branch before she was discovered to be transethnic.
> Not to mention many parents try to ‘fix’ it by forcing them to be who they don’t feel they are and it leads to depression and suicide.
And many parents try to “fix” it by only allowing their children to play with or wear things stereotypically associated with the opposite sex after they take their kid to a therapist who tells them their kid is actually the opposite sex in their brain, which is something completely unproven.
> I’m just curious, like you seem to believe just because you don’t agree with their lifestyle means you get to treat them like that when they aren’t harming anyone by living that way.
And what am I supposed to do? Lie about my viewpoint? Say “oh yes dear, you’re absolutely a woman, never mind you’re offending me with the stereotypical sexist ideas you have of what a woman even is.”
[Found on Not Your Safe Space]
It is evident that Auntie Wanda has thought a fair amount on gender and how it is constructed in society.
It’s [sex and gender] really not that esoteric:
A girl is a prepubescent to adolescent human female. A woman is a post-adolescent human female. A boy is a prepubescent to adolescent human male. A man is a post- adolescent human male.
Gender is the socially enforced prescribed behaviors and expectations people are pressured to follow based on which sex they are. It’s profoundly harmful and, especially for girls and women, oppressive.
“Gender identity” is therefore associating oneself with the oppressive gender roles of the opposite sex and determining that makes one the equivalent of the opposite sex (or in some way something other than the sex they are), which only reinforces the idea that gender roles are inherent to the sexes, which only furthers their oppressive use on the sexes.
That’s it really.
Can you explain it a little differently? I’m really tired and frustrated at the moment, please just make it a little more simple if that’s okay?
“Okay, consider it this way: you’re born female, you’re a girl. You’re born male, you’re a boy. That in of itself is a neutral statement.
But in our society there are certain things expected of girls that aren’t expected of boys. We’re expected to be quieter, more agreeable, less capable, less competent, less intelligent than boys.
We’re expected to like makeup and fashion and princesses and we’re also treated as vain and frivolous and less worthy for liking these things.
If we like “boy” things that may be seen as quirky and charming for a while, but it’s still discouraged and we’re still expected to grow out of it.
We’re expected to be disinterested in science, engineering and technology, discouraged from purusing it if we are interested and treated as less competent if we make it our career in adulthood.
(Even though a scant few decades ago women primarily did the mathematical calculations for NASA and preformed the earliest computer programming. Because those things, like typing, were seen as jobs that were beneath men to do.)
We’re expected to be sexually appealing to every man on the street. This is the role given to us in most advertising, film and media by default.
We’re expected to grow up to be the helpers of men, to be their wives and girlfriends and the things they get sex from. To further their own needs and ambitions while having none of our own.
That’s gender. It’s sexist. And it sucks.”
The working title for this post was accurate, but a bit wordy: Dude Superciliously Imagines What Females Think then Blames Females for His Imagining of their Problems. We tightened things up a bit and figured we’d add more verbosity in the introduction.
The Dude over at Talonrest is a master of erecting stupid assertions (go there now for the bullshite-in-the-raw), applying them to the group he hates (feminists, women, double-XXers, etc.) and then castigating feminists for acting (as he portrayed them to act) so damn shallow and stupid. Talon’s glaring problem is that his argumentation only briefly entertains connections to reality.
Talon DudeMcDudinstein is all about abandoning any semblance of rationality preferring to sashay headlong into meandering fields of straw arguments and butt-cogitations that manage to both besot and flagellate the reader not only with their insipidness, but astonishing lack of grounding in anything resembling fact.
Different format time folks, let’s deal in paragraph sized chunks to see if we can really appreciate what dear Talon is trying to say.
“Behind all the feminist posturing about being independent and empowered a big fear for many millennial young women still remains the impending big 30. That’s when the facade starts to crack and they realise that they didn’t have this all figured out.
You will see signs of it start to happen in the late 20s as the strong independent millennial woman who has been living it up in the years of her prime attractiveness starts to realise that the party won’t last forever and that she is no longer the center of the universe for the high-quality male attention that she used to take for granted.”
This is really a grand example of what happens when dudes ‘analyze’ the experience of females through the fucked up lens of patriarchal expectations. Those expectations are:
1. A female’s worth in society is directly correlated to the physical attributes men find attractive.
2. Male ‘attention’ is a valuable resource because, implicitly speaking, females cannot achieve in society without male help/attention.
Both points are the kind of nefarious bullshit women struggle against everyday. The grand quest to be though of as human, rather than desirable fuck-object starts here.
The fight to be a subject that is capable of action, rather than a object to be acted upon is fundamental to the feminist movement and happens to be one of the tenets many radical feminists organize around. (The radical notion that women are people too – et cetera)
“It happens gradually, but one day she suddenly realises she has been receiving a lot less attention from men. The waiter at Starbucks is no longer extra-friendly to her. People start expecting her to pull her weight at work and no longer cut her as slack despite her pulling the usual charm offensives. She looks at that new young pretty intern that just joined her workplace getting attention from everyone and suddenly realises that she can no longer compete.”
Misogyny comes in so many flavours, here we see the restated notion that female worth is derived from male attention. Female people have the same extrinsic and intrinsic value as human beings – and this is the key truth that Talon, our shit-nozzle of the day cannot comprehend.
“It is telling that most of the social media posts worrying about the impending big 30 come from my empowered, independent female acquaintances, along with the usual self-assuring polemics about how they “still got it” and are wiser and stronger with age. But you get the distinct impression that they are just posturing and attempting to make sense of a very confusing situation.”
Women are not confused about the situation as they have been socialized from the beginning to be pleasing objects of desire for men, and are also aware of the penalties for non-compliance. Aging-out or fatting-out of the prime attention of zone of dudes can be bitter celebration for many women as it marks the transition from constantly creeped on fuck-toilet to mostly ignored invisible non-person. Choosing your patriarchal shit sandwich has never been so empowering…
“What’s more interesting is that my female acquaintances who have settled down in their 20s and have gotten on with life in starting a family and working on building a functioning, fruitful and healthy marriage don’t exhibit any sort of the same angst on social media.”
The Second Shift doesn’t leave much time for facebook. Raising a family mirrors of the inequality women face in society, as women are responsible for most of the work that goes into rearing children and the domestic hell that goes along with said task.
“Meanwhile their strong, empowered counterparts are trying to get into fad yoga, getting cats and hopping onto the next fashionable frivolous activity that comes along in an attempt to prolong their party years. But it’s clear for all to see that their best years are behind them, and they are just trying to relive the heady days of their early 20s, except without the devoted male attention and valuation that they used to take for granted.”
Because the male-gaze is awesome.
No head? Check. Fetishized parts represented? Check. =Male Gaze achieved.
“This is the brutal reality of female nature that many millennial women don’t realise- they time they have in the sun is actually quite limited. Young women who keep themselves even passably attractive enjoy a lot of social leverage based upon their biological youth. This, along with modern pop-culture feminism that encourages “empowered” behaviours without caveats that leads to them having a distorted idea of their own value.”
I’m pretty sure this ‘social leverage’ is what douche-canoe misogynists like Talon bang-on about all the time. All the submissive beauty rituals that differentiate females from the accepted standard of ‘normal’ (male) must be lauded and elevated so that somehow they become desirable to perform. Hey ladies, perform all these pointless rituals to appease the male gaze, but on the same time we’re going to shit on you your for doing all these frivolous time-wasting things. Patriarchal double standards for women are the norm in this society, and this is just one of many.
Striving to be valued as full human being is society is hardly a ‘distortion’. Ass-hat.
“They assume they will always be attractive and that the red carpet from men will always be out for them. They don’t realise a lot of the “you’re beautiful” polemics will actually be coming from themselves after they pass the big 30. There are always thirsty Beta men who are willing to snap up the leftovers after the party stops for our “empowered” woman when she ages out of the market, but she is unlikely to find this men very appealing.
The “empowered” woman stuck with lower tier dating options. Cue a lot of self-convincing that they are not snag a Beta they can’t feel attracted to because they are trying to cash in before all of their attractive fade and eventual resentment that the “empowered” lifestyle didn’t deliver them Mr. Big at the end of the day.”
*sigh* – Because all women are about snagging the ‘prime’ ‘alpha’ male. One of the neat things about making arguments is that one cannot arrive at truth when one of the premises you’re basing your arguments on is false. In this case, patently false – classifying men, like wolf packs, into Alpha and Beta males – is based on discredited shit research that got almost everything wrong about wolf society. I’ve talked about this before on the DWR before so I’ll quote myself to on how wrong the MRA classification system is:
This chart is LOL-tastic. Witness the extent of self-delusion our MRA friends mentally fap over. It’s horrible-scary-fascinating all at the same time.
“Schenkel’s observations of captive wolf behavior were erroneously extrapolated to wild wolf behavior, and then to domestic dogs. It was postulated that wolves were in constant competition for higher rank in the hierarchy, and only the aggressive actions of the alpha male and female held the contenders in check. Other behaviorists following Schenkel’s lead also studied captive wolves and confirmed his findings: groups of unrelated wolves brought together in artificial captive environments do, indeed, engage in often-violent and bloody social struggles.
The problem is, that’s not normal wolf behavior. As David Mech stated in the introduction to his study of wild wolves (Mech, 2000), “Attempting to apply information about the behavior of assemblages of unrelated captive wolves to the familial structure of natural packs has resulted in considerable confusion. Such an approach is analogous to trying to draw inferences about human family dynamics by studying humans in refugee camps. The concept of the alpha wolf as a ‘top dog’ ruling a group of similar-aged compatriots (Schenkel 1947; Rabb et al. 1967; Fox 1971a; Zimen 1975, 1982; Lockwood 1979; van Hooff et al. 1987) is particularly misleading.”
So, as the studies cited indicated, these assertions have been shown to be erroneous for over twenty years. It is known that accuracy (wit, intelligence, charity, …) and MRA’s don’t mix. If you can stomach the manosphere you will see this error perpetuated with metronomic regularity.
“A Red Pill masculine man worth his salt will know that these “empowered” women in full on approaching or post-30 panic will not be good prospects for a relationship. Their years of “empowered” feminist living would have stuffed their minds full of ideas that give them an entitlement mindset to commitment that is way beyond their value proposition. In addition, it is highly likely these “empowered” women would also not be having any maternal feminine aspects that are considered desirable wife material.”
Yes, having their minds stuffed with ideas that they are full human beings and not just objects of male of desire, the nerve of 30+ women. Oh, and keep in mind when you hear ‘maternal feminine aspects’ please read ‘patriarchally approved ritualized submission to men’.
[…] – Skipping repetitious meandering prose.
“Meanwhile, the Masculine man who has been focused on improving himself would find that his options in the dating marketplace would have opened up dramatically. While the early years can be tough for a man, the later years will only get better if he has spend the intervening years improving himself.
The Masculine man is shaped through adversity and develops the important life skills and experience that allows him to have a true value proposition in the Dating Marketplace.”
Masculinity is about exercising your will over others. Masculinity is toxic.
“The “empowered” woman on the other hand, has coasted through her life based on her youthful biological attractiveness and feminist “empowerment” ideology that made her overestimate how valuable she was just for having a vagina. She is less likely to have gone through the same adversity and rejection that a young man has in his struggle to be valued and hence is out at sea with a clue on what to do once she can no longer rely on her looks.”
Oh my goodness. Pro-Tip: Being Born with a vagina means a ticket to second class status in society. Not being heard, not being seen (other than as a sex object to be possessed), not being represented. These are all part of the female experience. Fuck-Nugget is trying to compare males facing rejection to the shit-show that is living life as female, as it appears to him to be a valid comparison (fml).”
“They are the ones that become the true matriarchs- the women who contribute their valuable life experience and maternal instincts towards nurturing the next generation of functional, fruitful adults, not the aging feminist spinster taking fad yoga and adopting multiple cats trying to live in a real life parody of Sex and the City.”
Yes ladies, if you adopt the submissive patriarchal ideal things will be right with the world, negating your personhood will payoff huge dividends as you’ll be expected to raise the next generation of patriarchally screwed up women and men.
Whoo-haa.
This is why it’s important to have a long game mindset in your Masculine journey, don’t be like the thirsty Beta who can’t think 5 years ahead and is always clamouring for female attention, making him the prime target of the panicking “empowered” woman seeking a chump willing to take any woman to settle down with. Focus on improving yourself and success, along with high quality feminine women worth your investment will naturally come.
*sigh* – Stupid ‘sage’ advice for the conclusion. Avoid those females with notions of personhood and wait to attract the perfect slave befitting your station. :(
This shit makes me tired. The amount of horrible is off the scale, and yet it dribbles forth with disquieting regularity from dudes who think they have the great game of life down and are grasping the bull by the horns.
I hope, by quietly pointing out that our MRA friends are not grasping the horns, but rather are elbow deep into the rectal fissures of said bull, that people can see how the societal system known as patriarchy fucks with people on an individual level, leading them to the dehumanizing conclusions we see on display here today.
Arb out.
Headless, mouth slightly open, long hair, white, frilly uncomfortable dress and flowers – A Weak object for consumption/desire.
“Women aren’t hated for being feminine, femininity is forced on us because we are hated. we don’t naturally apply make up, wear constricting clothing, shave our natural body hair and stay quiet even when we are upset with something. we are conditioned to do this because women are supposed to take up as little space as possible and erase traces of our growth both physically and mentally. women who refuse to perform femininity demand their space and they demand to be heard. they cannot be neutral in a highly gendered society; they are punished for not conforming.”
Femininity literally is weakness forced upon us. Being quiet, serving and submissive is not anything that can be reformed into some good, new kind of gender. We literally modify our bodies. We are trained to serve and be available. We are trained to hate ourselves and not strive too far, lest our oppressors may be displeased.
Femininity is the socialization of the oppressed class.
I’m at a loss as to what I can add to this. The least I can do is share this important video from my longtime hero, Vihart.
“I don’t want to see penis when I go to the washroom; he just stands there with the stall open and it makes me uncomfortable.“.
That was the quotable bit from a conversation I had with a female student I happened to be teaching at an elementary school this week. We were walking in from recess and Jaina brought this to my attention. I couldn’t detect any hate or malice in her statement, as she had just been playing convivially with Dakota (Male to Trans) minutes before. I told her that she had every right to feel uncomfortable as the situation she described was not appropriate in terms of what was happening in the bathroom… Jaina was surprised that a teacher agreed with her and her feelings of discomfort. I was going to suggest that she remind Dakota to shut the door but the conversation ended as we entered the school.
I hope that by listening to Jaina and supporting her statement she will talk with her teacher and her Dakota to sort that issue out.
The conversation caught me by surprise (as with most occurrences while teaching behaviour classes) and in the moment I had to negotiate between the child’s feelings and the official school board policy on gender and washrooms.
Review of the policy in question came down to these points –
Indicators of this best practice in action (pg.9)
• Students are able to access washrooms that are congruent with their gender identity.
• A student who objects to sharing a washroom or change-room with a student who is trans or gender-diverse is offered an alternative facility (this scenario also applies when a parent or other caregiver objects to shared washroom or change-room facilities on behalf of their child).
I certainly hope that Jaina’s concerns are heard and action is taken as traditionally the concerns of girls, and females in general, are all to often thrown under the bus.
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