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A conversation gleaned from Stardate Whenever –
“I was chatting with one of my managers and he told me he does drag performance and identifies as genderqueer. Which, you know, obviously I disagree with that terminology.
He had just been reprimanded at work for wearing makeup. In the same day that I was reprimanded for not wearing makeup.
And I just kept thinking about how while we framed it differently politically, we both were pissed that we were not allowed to do something because of our sex.
What was interesting is that he framed it as an invalidation of his identity whereas I framed it as an enforcement of my oppression. In my opinion, that is the big difference–I framed it as an oppressive system which people of my sex face, he framed is as a system he had not been allowed to opt out of. So it was the difference between an individual mindset and one of collective action.
Which of course became even more obvious when he explained to me the reasons why I *should* wear makeup to work.”
See the problem? The idea that your ‘identity’ is infringed upon and therefore the battle must be to change the rules within the system so you can validate your choices. The individual battle serves only the individual and as a by-product of the individual struggle the overall system is reinforced.
Is the quality of the choice ever examined? Is the nature of the system ever examined? Nope Nope Nope. The battle for individual identity choice is necessarily framed as making advancement within the oppressive framework of the gender hierarchy, thus to be affirmed in your choice, is simultaneously affirming the validity of the system. The status-quo is not threatened.
In this case the role of gender in society is the overarching problem for both people. Gender is an hierarchy, constructed and designed for use in society to keep one class of people favoured and the other class oppressed.
The battle that should be fought, and is being fought by radical feminists, is not for getting a better a ‘choice’ within a shitty system, but for the destruction/rollback/replacement of the toxic system itself.
The following is an exchange on tumblr between littlepumkinprincess and auntiewanda. I have changed the formatting a bit for the sake of readability, but their words and ideas remain the same. Many of the arguments that occur between gender critical feminists and trans-advocates play out in this exchange. It is certainly not an exhaustive collection of all the point/counter-points that exist but rather it illustrates a cross-section of what many interactions happen to look like.
Discussions of this nature tend to be controversial, so a reminder here to please be civil and respectful in the comment section.
“I’m not advocating violence against TERF’s but I am saying y’all need to stop playing the victim when you’re named that because you treat transgender people like shit, you don’t need special treatment because people called you out on that.”
The criteria for “treating like shit” seems to be “not agreeing with”.
And by “not agreeing with” you mean misgendering them, mentally and physically abusing them, excluding them in feminism, denying them human rights.
Okay, saying to a transwoman “I don’t agree you’re a woman” is physical abuse how? And also mental abuse how? Being upset at someone doesn’t automatically mean they’re mentally abusing you.
I don’t exclude transgender people from feminism, I apply feminism to the concept the same way I do anything else, and it comes up sexist.
Also how is not agreeing with someone that they are a thing they demonstrably aren’t a human rights issue? And why does it seem to be a double standard for transgender people? Or is Rachel Dolezal being mentally abused and denied human rights when people say she’s not what she claims?
When you say a transwoman isn’t a woman this leads people to believe it’s a ‘man in disguise’ and they need to protect poor women from them! See: transgender bathroom issues. This is the same belief system that allows people to think that physical abuse is okay, and just because you’re not doing it yourself doesn’t mean you’re not advocating that system.
How is demanding equal rights for genders sexist? Seeing as they’re women, I don’t see how it’s sexist considering feminism is the equality of men and women.
Gender dysphoria has proven that trans people are what they say they are, so idk how you can even say demonstrably. It’s a human rights issue because they’re treated as lesser than: they’re getting murdered at large rates, for example. Rachel is not mentally ill, she does it to cheat a system that’s there to help people who need it. There’s no proven racial dysphoria. Transgender people are genuinely who they say they are. Not to mention many parents try to ‘fix’ it by forcing them to be who they don’t feel they are and it leads to depression and suicide. Even IF you don’t believe them why does that mean you get to treat them like shit? I’m just curious, like you seem to believe just because you don’t agree with their lifestyle means you get to treat them like that when they aren’t harming anyone by living that way. That’s the same shit pro lifers do.
> When you say a transwoman isn’t a woman this leads people to believe it’s a ‘man in disguise’ and they need to protect poor women from them! See: transgender bathroom issues.
The issue with codifying use of “preferred” bathrooms, changing facilities etc. into law is more if the only criteria for a biologically male person to gain access to a female designated facility is for him to say “I am a woman” you’re exposing women to increased risk of predators.
Such as in the Christopher Hambrook case where a serial rapist gained access to two women’s shelters for prolong periods of time and sexually assaulted two women (that we know of) and all he had to do was claim to be a transwoman and they could not legally turn him away.
Plenty of transwomen who “just need to pee” already do so, are in and out of the women’s restroom with no issue. Why the hell should a legal loophole be created for predators to exploit?
> This is the same belief system that allows people to think that physical abuse is okay,
That’s a pretty big leap in logic there.
> How is demanding equal rights for genders sexist? Seeing as they’re women, I don’t see how it’s sexist considering feminism is the equality of men and women.
Transgender is a sexist concept in that it that operates on the belief that the socially constructed gender roles for the sexes are inherent to the sexes.
> Gender dysphoria has proven that trans people are what they say they are
How? People sincerely believe things that aren’t true all the time.
> so idk how you can even say demonstrably
It’s pretty easy to prove which sex someone is.
> Rachel is not mentally ill, she does it to cheat a system that’s there to help people who need it
Rachel Dolezal claims she’s always felt like she’s black, ever since she was a child. She identifies as black, she says what she does isn’t blackface. She says whiteness doesn’t describe her. So is she mentally ill or is her identity authentic? I mean she managed to become head of a local NAACP branch before she was discovered to be transethnic.
> Not to mention many parents try to ‘fix’ it by forcing them to be who they don’t feel they are and it leads to depression and suicide.
And many parents try to “fix” it by only allowing their children to play with or wear things stereotypically associated with the opposite sex after they take their kid to a therapist who tells them their kid is actually the opposite sex in their brain, which is something completely unproven.
> I’m just curious, like you seem to believe just because you don’t agree with their lifestyle means you get to treat them like that when they aren’t harming anyone by living that way.
And what am I supposed to do? Lie about my viewpoint? Say “oh yes dear, you’re absolutely a woman, never mind you’re offending me with the stereotypical sexist ideas you have of what a woman even is.”
[Found on Not Your Safe Space]
Watch as the mythology of gender is stripped away quickly and efficiently by AuntieWanda.
http://auntiewanda.tumblr.com/post/150945830601/gender-roles-and-gender-arent-the-same-thing
It is evident that Auntie Wanda has thought a fair amount on gender and how it is constructed in society.
It’s [sex and gender] really not that esoteric:
A girl is a prepubescent to adolescent human female. A woman is a post-adolescent human female. A boy is a prepubescent to adolescent human male. A man is a post- adolescent human male.
Gender is the socially enforced prescribed behaviors and expectations people are pressured to follow based on which sex they are. It’s profoundly harmful and, especially for girls and women, oppressive.
“Gender identity” is therefore associating oneself with the oppressive gender roles of the opposite sex and determining that makes one the equivalent of the opposite sex (or in some way something other than the sex they are), which only reinforces the idea that gender roles are inherent to the sexes, which only furthers their oppressive use on the sexes.
That’s it really.
Can you explain it a little differently? I’m really tired and frustrated at the moment, please just make it a little more simple if that’s okay?
“Okay, consider it this way: you’re born female, you’re a girl. You’re born male, you’re a boy. That in of itself is a neutral statement.
But in our society there are certain things expected of girls that aren’t expected of boys. We’re expected to be quieter, more agreeable, less capable, less competent, less intelligent than boys.
We’re expected to like makeup and fashion and princesses and we’re also treated as vain and frivolous and less worthy for liking these things.
If we like “boy” things that may be seen as quirky and charming for a while, but it’s still discouraged and we’re still expected to grow out of it.
We’re expected to be disinterested in science, engineering and technology, discouraged from purusing it if we are interested and treated as less competent if we make it our career in adulthood.
(Even though a scant few decades ago women primarily did the mathematical calculations for NASA and preformed the earliest computer programming. Because those things, like typing, were seen as jobs that were beneath men to do.)
We’re expected to be sexually appealing to every man on the street. This is the role given to us in most advertising, film and media by default.
We’re expected to grow up to be the helpers of men, to be their wives and girlfriends and the things they get sex from. To further their own needs and ambitions while having none of our own.
That’s gender. It’s sexist. And it sucks.”
“I don’t want to see penis when I go to the washroom; he just stands there with the stall open and it makes me uncomfortable.“.
That was the quotable bit from a conversation I had with a female student I happened to be teaching at an elementary school this week. We were walking in from recess and Jaina brought this to my attention. I couldn’t detect any hate or malice in her statement, as she had just been playing convivially with Dakota (Male to Trans) minutes before. I told her that she had every right to feel uncomfortable as the situation she described was not appropriate in terms of what was happening in the bathroom… Jaina was surprised that a teacher agreed with her and her feelings of discomfort. I was going to suggest that she remind Dakota to shut the door but the conversation ended as we entered the school.
I hope that by listening to Jaina and supporting her statement she will talk with her teacher and her Dakota to sort that issue out.
The conversation caught me by surprise (as with most occurrences while teaching behaviour classes) and in the moment I had to negotiate between the child’s feelings and the official school board policy on gender and washrooms.
Review of the policy in question came down to these points –
Indicators of this best practice in action (pg.9)
• Students are able to access washrooms that are congruent with their gender identity.
• A student who objects to sharing a washroom or change-room with a student who is trans or gender-diverse is offered an alternative facility (this scenario also applies when a parent or other caregiver objects to shared washroom or change-room facilities on behalf of their child).
I certainly hope that Jaina’s concerns are heard and action is taken as traditionally the concerns of girls, and females in general, are all to often thrown under the bus.
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