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There is a reason the recent interview on TRIGGERnometry featuring Andrew Wilson has drawn attention. Wilson does not simply argue positions; he shifts the ground beneath them. In a discussion about subjective morality and objective truth, that ability is decisive. Much of his effectiveness comes not from the novelty of his claims, but from the speed and clarity with which he forces his interlocutors to confront the implications of their own assumptions.
At the center of his argument is a compressed but powerful move. If morality is subjective, then moral claims reduce to preference. If they reduce to preference, then disagreement cannot be resolved through appeal to truth, but only through assertion and enforcement. From there, the conclusion follows: without objective morality, ethics collapses into power. It is a clean chain of reasoning, rhetorically efficient and difficult to interrupt in real time, especially when opponents have not fully examined the foundations of their own views.
Part of what makes this approach so effective is that it presses on a genuine weakness in much contemporary moral discourse. Secular arguments about morality often appeal to harm, fairness, or consensus. These are intuitively compelling and widely shared, but they are not self-grounding in a strict sense. They rely on assumptions that are rarely defended at a deeper level. When Wilson asks why these principles should bind anyone who does not already accept them, the hesitation that follows is real. Moral language tends to present itself as if it refers to something objective, even when speakers explicitly deny that such objectivity exists. That tension creates an opening, and Wilson exploits it with precision.
There is, in other words, a strong version of his argument. If moral claims are entirely subjective, then their authority becomes difficult to justify beyond the boundaries of a given framework. The question “why should anyone outside your system care?” is not rhetorical; it is a genuine challenge. It exposes the gap between the way people speak about morality and the way they often ground it, if they ground it at all. On this point, Wilson is not merely performing. He is identifying a real philosophical pressure.
The difficulty lies in what follows. Wilson moves from the observation that subjective morality has grounding problems to the conclusion that it therefore collapses into power. That step is doing more work than it appears. It bypasses a large middle space in which most moral systems actually operate. Societies do not typically function by reducing all moral claims to arbitrary preference, nor do they rely on universally agreed metaphysical truths. They operate through a combination of norms, institutions, reciprocal expectations, and forms of reasoning that are neither purely objective nor wholly arbitrary. These structures impose real constraints on behavior. They shape incentives, establish boundaries, and generate predictability over time.
A simple example makes the point. Most people keep small promises—returning a borrowed item, showing up when they say they will—not because of objective moral truth, but because repeated interaction makes reliability valuable and defection costly. Over time, those expectations harden into norms that feel binding, even if their origin is entirely practical.
Underlying Wilson’s move is an assumption that if a claim is not objectively grounded, it has no binding force. That assumption is not obviously correct. Much of what governs human behavior lacks objective grounding in a strict philosophical sense. Laws, contracts, and social norms are not objective truths in the way physical laws are, yet they bind behavior effectively. Their force arises from shared expectations, enforcement mechanisms, and the long-term costs of violation. The relevant question, then, is not simply whether morality is objective, but what kinds of systems are capable of generating stable and predictable constraints on human conduct.
“Wilson doesn’t defeat morality without objectivity—he defeats weaker versions of it faster than they can defend themselves.”
Wilson’s own solution—grounding morality in God—does attempt to solve this problem by anchoring obligation outside human preference. Whether that succeeds is a separate question. It secures authority for those who accept it, but does not obviously resolve disagreement among those who do not.
This is where the conversation in the interview begins to fragment. Wilson is arguing at the level of justification: what ultimately grounds moral claims and gives them authority. The hosts, by contrast, are operating at the level of function: how moral systems work in practice and how societies maintain order and cooperation. These are related but distinct questions. One concerns philosophical legitimacy; the other concerns social viability. When they are treated as interchangeable, the discussion collapses into confusion. Wilson’s advantage is that he keeps the focus tightly on justification, where his binary framing is strongest. The hosts attempt to shift toward function, but without fully articulating how functional systems can resist the collapse he describes, their responses remain incomplete.
A more effective reply would have acknowledged the grounding problem while resisting the forced conclusion. Even if morality is not objectively grounded, it does not follow that it is arbitrary or that it reduces to raw power. Systems of cooperation and constraint can emerge from the conditions of human life itself: shared vulnerability, repeated interaction, and the high cost of disorder. These factors generate incentives for stable norms and predictable behavior. They do not eliminate conflict or disagreement, but they provide a framework within which those disagreements can be managed without constant recourse to coercion.
This does not eliminate the binding problem entirely. Functional systems explain why cooperation emerges and persists, but they do not fully answer why an individual should comply when defection is advantageous and enforcement is weak. That tension remains, even in the most stable societies.
Wilson’s rhetorical strength lies in the fact that he does not need to defeat this more complex position. He only needs to expose the instability of a weaker one. Once his opponents concede that morality is subjective without offering a robust account of how subjective systems generate binding norms, he can recast their position as preference backed by social pressure and, ultimately, by force. That recasting is not entirely wrong, but it is incomplete. It compresses a complicated reality into a stark alternative, and in doing so it gains persuasive force at the cost of nuance.
The result is an argument that is both powerful and limited. It succeeds as a critique of poorly grounded moral subjectivism, but it overreaches when it claims that subjectivity necessarily entails collapse into power. In practice, moral systems occupy a space between objective truth and arbitrary preference. They are constructed, negotiated, and enforced, but they are also constrained by human conditions that make certain arrangements more stable than others.
Wilson is, in this sense, asking a legitimate question. The problem is that he answers it too quickly. By collapsing the range of possible moral systems into a binary, he forces clarity but sacrifices accuracy. That trade-off is what makes him such an effective debater. It is also what limits the depth of the conclusions he draws.
This Is Not a Theology Argument
There’s a version of this argument that collapses on contact.
“Christian societies succeed because Christianity is true.”
That’s not serious. It’s too broad, too easy to counter, and it drags the discussion into theology. That’s not what this is.
This is narrower.
Modern successful societies appear to rely on a set of moral assumptions that did not arise randomly—and may not sustain themselves indefinitely once detached from the structures that produced them.
Not proof, not prophecy, but rather… dependence.
Name the Structure, Not the Institution
When I refer to “Judeo-Christian ethics,” I’m not talking about the historical behavior of churches or states. That record is mixed at best and often indefensible. It doesn’t need rescuing here.
I’m pointing to a moral architecture—a cluster of ideas that shaped behavior long before belief began to fade:
- intrinsic human worth
- moral equality beyond tribe
- limits on power
- individual responsibility
- restraint
- forgiveness over vendetta
These now feel obvious.
They weren’t.
What looks like baseline morality is often inherited structure—and inheritance has a way of disguising itself as inevitability.
Christianity Is Not the Only Path—And That Matters
If the claim were simply “Judeo-Christian societies do better,” it would fail.
There are Christian-majority countries that struggle. There are secular societies that thrive. There are atrocities carried out under religious banners that no serious reader will ignore.
And then there’s Japan.
Japan is not a counterexample. It’s a correction.
It demonstrates that similar outcomes—order, trust, cohesion—can emerge from entirely different traditions. Which means the key variable isn’t Christianity itself.
It’s something deeper.
Japan suggests the underlying requirement is not a specific doctrine, but a sufficiently internalized system of obligation—whether grounded in universal dignity or social duty. The forms differ. The function is similar: behavior is constrained before enforcement becomes necessary.
Not all structures are interchangeable. But high-functioning societies tend to converge on systems that reliably produce restraint, accountability, and continuity across generations—however they justify them.
These systems are not immune to strain. Japan’s own pressures—aging demographics, declining birth rates, and shifting social norms—suggest that even deeply internalized frameworks are not static under modern conditions.
What These Systems Actually Do
Strip away the language and look at function.
These frameworks tend to produce:
- higher social trust
- delayed gratification
- stable family structures
- informal accountability
- expectations that limit the use of power
These are not abstract outcomes. They follow from repeated behaviors:
- when restraint is internalized, fewer actions require enforcement
- when accountability is expected, trust rises and transaction costs fall
- when power is seen as limited, institutions stabilize rather than dominate
Over time, these behaviors compound into systems that rely less on coercion and more on expectation.
That sounds mundane. It isn’t. It’s what makes large, complex societies livable.
None of this requires belief.
But it does require internalization.
And internalization is slow, uneven, and difficult to rebuild once it thins out.
The Enlightenment Didn’t Start From Zero
The Enlightenment didn’t sweep this away and replace it with reason.
It reorganized it.
It challenged religious authority, formalized rights, and built institutions that still define modern life. That’s real progress and it shouldn’t be minimized.
But it did not begin from moral zero.
The assumptions were already there—about equality, dignity, and limits on power. The Enlightenment clarified and extended them. It did not generate them out of nothing.
The harder question is whether reason alone can reproduce the same depth of commitment, especially when those commitments become costly.
Reason is excellent at organizing systems. It is less reliable at compelling sacrifice—and societies eventually run into situations where something has to give.
The Problem Friedrich Nietzsche Identified
Nietzsche is often invoked carelessly. This isn’t that.
His point wasn’t that religion should be preserved. It was that removing it has consequences that don’t show up immediately.
You can discard a system and keep its language for a while.
You can keep its assumptions even longer.
What you can’t do indefinitely is treat the foundation as optional while expecting the structure to remain stable.
That process doesn’t announce itself.
It drifts—and by the time it becomes obvious, it is usually well underway.
Drift Shows Up as Substitution
Drift doesn’t look like collapse.
It looks like substitution.
As informal norms weaken, societies compensate with formal mechanisms:
- more regulation
- more surveillance
- more litigation
- more explicit enforcement of what was once assumed
That shift isn’t inherently catastrophic. In many cases it works.
But it changes how order is maintained. It replaces internal constraint with external management—and that trade is rarely free.
You can see it at the margins: rising regulatory density, increased reliance on formal compliance systems in workplaces and institutions, growing legal mediation of disputes that were once handled informally. These trends have multiple causes, but they share a common feature—behavior that once required little enforcement now requires more of it.
The Secular Case—and Its Limit
A secular answer exists.
We can justify these norms through reason, reciprocity, and shared interest. We don’t need theology to understand cooperation or stability.
And in many cases, this works. High-trust secular societies demonstrate that norms can be transmitted without widespread religious belief.
The question is not whether this is possible.
It clearly is.
The question is whether these systems are fully self-sustaining over long time horizons, or whether they depend—quietly—on inherited assumptions that become harder to justify as those assumptions lose coherence.
That dependency is easy to miss because it feels like common sense.
It isn’t. It’s memory.
If these systems are fully self-sustaining, we would expect high-trust, high-restraint behavior to remain stable even as the underlying moral frameworks continue to thin. If they are not, the pressure will show up first at the margins—in declining informal trust, rising enforcement costs, and increasing reliance on explicit rules to maintain baseline order.
What This Argument Is—and Is Not
This is not an argument for belief.
It’s an argument against pretending we’re starting from nothing.
Societies that function well do not run on law and incentives alone. They rely on internalized limits—on what people will not do, even when they can.
Judeo-Christian ethics provided one version of that in the West. Other civilizations developed their own.
The open question is not whether we can discard those frameworks.
We already have.
The question is whether we understand what they were doing well enough to replace them—or whether we are still relying on them while insisting we are not.
The Uncomfortable Conclusion
Removing a foundation does not collapse a structure immediately.
It exposes, slowly, what the structure depended on—and whether we’ve mistaken inheritance for design.
I’m not a religious individual. This series has made that clear enough over time, and I’m not about to reverse course now. But looking out at the current cultural moment, something else is becoming difficult to ignore: within many of our influential cultural and institutional spaces, people are not stepping away from religion into something stronger or more coherent; they are drifting into something thinner, more unstable, and ultimately more corrosive.
Call it cultural relativism, call it critical theory, call it the downstream effects of postmodern deconstruction—it doesn’t much matter which label you prefer. What matters is the shared move underneath it. The older structures that once oriented people toward truth, obligation, and restraint are no longer treated as imperfect guides to be improved upon; they are treated primarily as systems of power to be exposed, delegitimized, and, where possible, dismantled.
That shift does not leave a neutral vacuum.
A society cannot sustain itself on permanent critique, because critique alone does not tell you what to build in its place, nor does it supply the habits of restraint needed to keep that construction from collapsing.”
On a more personal level, it is increasingly common to encounter people who describe their lives almost entirely through the lens of structural disadvantage, even when their circumstances are relatively stable. The framework offers an explanation for frustration, but it also narrows the space for agency, because improvement begins to look less like progress and more like complicity in the very systems being critiqued.
People require some kind of orienting framework, not necessarily a perfect one, but one stable enough to tell them what is worth building, what must be limited, and what ought to endure beyond their immediate preferences. When every structure is interpreted first as an instrument of domination, that framework does not evolve into something better calibrated—it fragments. What follows is not so much liberation as drift, where moral language remains in use but loses its anchor, and where personal identity begins to carry more explanatory weight than shared standards ever could.
Some of this thinking has value in narrow contexts. As a tool for examining institutions, it can reveal blind spots, excesses, and genuine injustices that deserve correction. But once it escapes those boundaries and becomes a general worldview, it scales badly. A society cannot sustain itself on permanent critique, because critique alone does not tell you what to build in its place, nor does it supply the habits of restraint necessary to keep that construction from collapsing under pressure.
The psychological effects are not incidental here. If a person is taught, explicitly or implicitly, that every system they inhabit is stacked against them, and that their standing within that system is best understood through grievance rather than agency, the result is not empowerment in any meaningful sense. It is demoralization dressed up as insight. Over time, that posture makes collective life harder to maintain, not easier, because it erodes the basic trust required for cooperation.
This is where the comparison with religion, uncomfortable as it may be, begins to sharpen.
Religious frameworks, even when metaphysically suspect or internally inconsistent, tend to provide a coherent structure of meaning, obligation, and limitation. They impose costs. They constrain behaviour. They bind individuals into something that extends beyond the self, whether that is a community, a tradition, or a conception of the good that cannot be endlessly revised to suit immediate preference. Those features can be abused, and often have been, but they are not accidental—they are part of what makes such systems socially durable.
It is worth noting that some of the most stable and prosperous societies today are also among the least religious. That observation deserves to be taken seriously. But those societies are not culturally unmoored; they are, in many cases, the beneficiaries of long-standing moral traditions that continue to shape behaviour even as explicit belief declines. The question is not whether a society can function after religion recedes, but how long it can continue to draw on inherited norms once the structures that sustained them are no longer reinforced.
If the practical choice is between a society that retains some shared, if imperfect, moral architecture and one that dissolves that architecture in favour of perpetual deconstruction, I am no longer convinced that the latter is the safer or more enlightened path. That is not because religion is true in any ultimate sense, but because it appears to do something that our current alternatives struggle to replicate at scale. Secular frameworks capable of supplying meaning and restraint do exist. What remains unclear is whether they can achieve the same level of cultural penetration and durability without borrowing from the traditions they seek to replace.
This is not an argument for theocracy. A classically liberal state remains the best framework we have for preserving freedom, dissent, and pluralism across deep differences. But liberalism has never been self-sustaining in the way its defenders sometimes imagine. It has historically relied on inherited norms—habits of restraint, notions of duty, a willingness to subordinate impulse to something more enduring—that it did not generate on its own.
When those supporting structures are steadily stripped away, the system does not immediately collapse, but it does begin to thin out. The language of rights remains, but the culture that made those rights workable starts to erode. At that point, something else will fill the gap, and it is not guaranteed to be gentler, freer, or more rational than what came before.
None of this erases the historical abuses tied to religion. It simply raises the possibility that removing it creates vulnerabilities we have not yet learned to manage.
Religion, for all its flaws, once carried a significant portion of that load.
Remove it, or hollow it out beyond recognition, and the question is no longer whether people will believe in something. It is what they will reach for instead—and whether that replacement will prove more stable than the thing it displaced.
Dear Religious people,
Have you thanked your local atheist today? If not, you should because atheism and by extension secular society, is saving you from the immoral loopy shit your bronze age beliefs demand. The latest demonstration of how immoral and barbaric religion is comes to us from the Sudan. (read more about Mariam at Al Jazeera)
“Mariam Yehya Ibrahim, a Sudanese mother, doctor and Christian, has been sentenced to flogging and death unless she recants her Christian faith. She is 8 months pregnant and has a two-year-old son. Please, join the international community in asking Sudan not to execute her for being a Christian.”
Wow.
You “go hard” there Islam – the religion of peace and friend to women across the globe.
“Ibrahim is charged with adultery on the grounds that her marriage to a Christian man from South Sudan is considered void under Shari’a law, for which the penalty is flogging. She’s also charged with apostasy, or abandonment of religion, for which the penalty is death.”
Well you can see the problem here, obviously, that if you decide to change from one fatuous belief system to another, the penalty is death. Funny we don’t hear about these sorts of things in North America. You can thank god that the United States wasn’t founded as christian nation – if it was, this sort of egregious crime against humanity would be common place in the lower 48 all the time.
You know why it isn’t? (hint: rhymes with ‘Fecularism’)
The very secular foundations of society that the christian right is chipping away at are the very same foundations that are preserving the “not-allowing-stupid-religious-shit-to-go-down” haven that Americans inhabit.
Witness the fucking evilly deranged face of theocratic rule and tell me that this is what you want for your society? Getting a little closer to god gets you a little closer to barbarity. How depraved must one be, in the pursuit of a religious based society, to somehow think that theocratic rule is good?
“Mariam is the daughter of a Christian woman and Muslim man. She was raised Christian after her father left. However, Sudanese law mandates that children born to Muslim fathers are considered Muslim.
The fact that a woman could be sentenced to death for her religious choice, and to flogging for being married to a man of an allegedly different religion is abhorrent.”
This does NOT happen in modern secular society.
Your pious objections to secularism are noted; you can now sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up and think about the good that secularism has done for you and your freedom to believe in vacuous mythology of your choice. Maybe, just maybe, instead of campaigning for and electing people with ‘good christian values’ you could decide to support someone that is defending your very (comfortable) way of life, here in reality, where it matters.
Continue to erode the secular aegis at your own peril.
Lastly, get off your damn knees, stop praying, and go do something useful for once – sign the petition to save Mariam’s life.
Qualia soup argues for secularism and its benefits to atheists and theists.
bleatmop
Mystro
Dead Wild Roses 
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